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Mirror on Higher Education

October 23, 2007
A blogger, supposedly a professor, copied a comment of mine from another blog. From that comment, she went on to assign me a race, other than human, and used abusive adjectives to describe me. What’s next, will I be assigned an income, a place of birth, and told who I must vote for? This is the face of our educators. One of the elite. One who belongs to a class who likes to claim that they are underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated. If the blogging world has not done anything for the human race, it has opened an access for others to see just how reckless and irresponsible people who are teaching our children may be. The smugness that such professors possess is irreparable when interacting with students and others who look up to this type. The rabid need to categorise and theorise using their own suppositions and forcing those suppositions onto others whether the others are claiming or engaging. A raunchy ivory tower with a dilapidated foundation, painted in chameleon hues.

Now if she would be so kind to tell me where she teaches I will be more than happy to forward to her department chair a sample of her scholarship.

  1. Pippa permalink
    October 23, 2007 7:44 am

    WTF?? I suppose it would be unethical to ask for details? I’m intrigued. And disgusted. It’s always worse when you think someone knows better. P x

  2. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 23, 2007 12:42 pm

    Pippa, in a thread at Feministe I left a comment saying I have no race, no ethnicity, no country. In the first comment, I should have included “in the blogging world.” Someone did call me out on it asking if I meant in real life or in the blogging world. I responded by specifically saying in the blogging world because the blogging world is a perfect place to practice what many claim they do practice in real life which is not forming opinions and expectations about others according to how they look. From that comment Rachel Sullivan from a site called Rachel’s Tavern, a white professor (she claims) went on to say I was ignorant and nonsensical and anything else that she could think of in order to start a “let’s attack this person who is going against the propaganda” situation. I find her rhetoric to feed into white supremacy, because of her incessant need to categorise. She went on to say something about being stopped by the police, going into a store, etc. However, I do not see how in the blogging world I will be stopped by the police (well other than her policing) or seen going into a store. But that’s just it, that is the proof. What she is saying is, before she can read someone’s words, opinions, about anything, be it a book, a movie, a story of their day-to-day happenings she needs to know what they look like first. She needs to categorise them into a race. If she cannot do this, then she cannot imagine it to be anything but nonsensical. What it tells me is she wants racism to continue. She claims to be combating racism but her very need to categorise is feeding racism. In the very milieu (the net) that can break barriers, she is forcing barriers. She is a danger to our children. Obviously in her world, there are victims who will forever remain victims and their are oppressors. She is determined to keep that divide alive. Coincidently the colour she claims has a history of being an oppressor. Therefore, as long as her position (race) is known she assures her benefits from that oppression. She needs that colour arousal (as Francis Holland asserts). The imperialist game of taxonomy.

    I don’t know why I bothered. Race is a man’s game anyway with no women winners.

  3. momo permalink
    October 23, 2007 1:55 pm

    I think I understood your comment, in that context, as declarative rather than descriptive, but I think it was taken too literally. As for mocking someone by name in a post who is not an elected official, I’ve never liked that. The other side of the blogging phenomenon, besides the way we project categories, is that it is too easy to forget that behind the persona is a person. That is why I am so cautious in my posting and commenting. I’m way too thin-skinned.

  4. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 23, 2007 3:42 pm

    I think I understood your comment, in that context, as declarative rather than descriptive, but I think it was taken too literally.

    Correct. Being literal in the area of theory is destructive, something I have been pondering about when reading on the Jena 6. People who are saying, “a noose is just a noose, no one is actually putting it around anyone’s neck” is making a damaging psychological issue a literal one, thus, diminishing the psychological consequences such an image invokes. It surprises me how supposedly an area of expertise that is rich in theory tends to give refuge to a glut of people who practice the literal.

    I have a problem believing someone’s claim that he or she is wanting to rid the world of a particular system while they brazenly engage (to their advantage) in that system.

  5. Pippa permalink
    October 23, 2007 4:59 pm

    Whew! i think I get it all. It’s such a contentious issue and I see what you are saying and I kind of see what she might be saying. But, she absolutely crossed a line with the way she treated you. You dealt with it well. Pippa x

  6. Heart permalink
    October 23, 2007 5:45 pm

    I think it does matter who we are, even online. BUT. My observation is, it really only *does* matter where we do not carefully tow a particular party line. Where we are too uppity. Then it is open season for ad hominem attacks, outright lies, slander, defamation, bullying and ugliness.

    In particular, it matters where we are uppity and *make too much sense*. Because if we are uppity and we make too much sense, and we dissent from the party line, the search must now be on for every possible weapon with which to hammer us into silence or at least make it less likely that people will read us and think, “Whoa, that makes sense, who is this, this is great!”

    ekittyglendower, my observation as to you is, you are (1) smart; (2) brave; (3) wise; (4) unapologetic in talking about your own reality, which reality is unusual and *liminal*. Liminal figures always fuck things up, you know? Their narratives do not mesh tidily with the narratives that would endear them to various flavors of assholes who have bought into so much stuff whole-cloth they should start their own garment factory, except nobody would buy anything from them because the whole-cloth they have bought is so stultifyingly lifeless in its “nonconforming” conformity.

    Yeah, that’s cryptic. But I know you get it. 🙂 One of many reasons I am so proud to call you my friend.

    Don’t let them get to you, Kitty. Let them run their mouths while you continue to run your business.


  7. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 23, 2007 6:36 pm

    That is very kind of you Heart. I’m so very thankful to know you as well. It has helped that you and Momo have given me concepts, thoughts, such as declarative and liminal to mull over and Pippa to recognise a crossed line. There seems to be this need, almost religious in scope to have create, make a tangible quality to the intangible. Many degrees over I will have to seriously consider what happens to a culture void of art, as in not offered in schools anymore, and other variables that cause a character such as the murdering vigilante Dexter to be held as a pop culture hero. Yeah, I’m running my business. LOL!

  8. Heart permalink
    October 23, 2007 6:43 pm

    I posted this over there:

    Since it is evidently dandy for a feminist to create a post denouncing another feminist woman as “ignorant”, and since it is evidently dandy to then attempt, in various ways, to deepen and improve upon the humiliation, perhaps it is similarly dandy for me to suggest that all of you here, save Kitty, display some pretty hefty ignorance of your own. Kitty is in good company so far as her comments here.

    … We, daughters of educated men, are between the devil and the deep sea. Behind us lies the patriarchal system; the private house, with its nullity, its immorality, its hypocrisy, its servility. Before us lies the public world, the professional system, with its possessiveness, its jealousy, its pugnacity, its greed. The one shuts us up like slaves in a harem; the other forces us to circle, like caterpillars head to tail, round and round the mulberry tree, the sacred tree, of property. It is a choice of evils. Each is bad. Had we not better plunge off the bridge into the river; give up the game; declare that the whole of human life is a mistake and so end it?

    … if you insist upon fighting to protect me, or “our” country, let it be understood, soberly and rationally between us, that you are fighting to gratify a sex instinct which I cannot share; to procure benefits which I have not shared and probably will not share; but not to gratify my instincts, or to protect either myself or my country. For,’ the outsider will say, ‘in fact, as a woman, I have no country. As a woman I want no country. As a woman my country is the whole world.’

    – Virginia Woolf, The Three Guineas, 1937-38.

    Worth a read.

    What is ignored here (and elsewhere) is women’s lack of agency. ALL women’s. We didn’t end up where we are in the world because we set sail and sailed somewhere, became business owners or government officials, installed our own leaders and governments. We were dragged, enslaved, as chattel, against our will to wherever we ended up. This is relevant.

    It is all relevant. I *do* think who people are matters, including on the ‘net. My experience is it matters a lot more in some instances than others, in ways that are really indefensible imo, like here.

    Would you all be able to find a patriarchal, heterosupremacist men or to to call “ignorant” in the title of a post, now and again? A dose of perspective is, I believe, in order.

    I won’t be back. But Rachel, this is imo way over the top.


    I’m sorry, Kitty. You didn’t deserve that.


  9. Heart permalink
    October 23, 2007 6:46 pm

    Kitty, what you are saying is also what the Magoist Korean radfem is writing about. I have a post about her on my blog– she spoke at the Feminist Hullaballoo. I’d post her name but I would for sure spell it wrong without checking back.


  10. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 23, 2007 7:20 pm

    Thanks Heart, I cannot bother to go back either. I refuse to be victimised by people who need a victim to feel alive. Also, bless you for recoginising my feminism.

    We must pity, I believe.

  11. momo permalink
    October 23, 2007 7:39 pm

    Oh, yes, Three Guineas! Thanks, Heart, for those words.

  12. Professor Zero permalink
    October 23, 2007 10:32 pm

    They didn’t read your comment very closely and had a knee jerk reaction because they expect everyone to repeat certain basic points (never just assume them) and not to go further than that or get more specific than that.

  13. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 24, 2007 4:56 am

    Yes, Professor, and I think of your re-education series alot. Because to re-educate the ever changing requires going further all the time. There is not one place someone can get to and be done with it.

  14. Professor Zero permalink
    October 24, 2007 7:35 am

    Yes and not everything can be reduced to sound bytes.

    I have the feeling you should write and publish your autobiography.

  15. Rent Party permalink
    October 24, 2007 8:30 pm

    I agree *completely* with Momo’s comment.

    And – argh, it’s exhausting. I think I will from now on only ever intercede in these battles if they happen at places I actually blog. And I think I’ll take a much less open attitude, be really really objective. And I will not comment much elsewhere, except maybe in really friendly spaces.

    What I am uncomfortable with is all the decontextualizing of comments and the demonization of speakers. It is one thing to take issue with a whole post. But there are too many knee jerk reactions and cheap shots and just general bullying around.

    I do see why they misunderstood you but that question, “do you mean IRL or online” was on the money and should’ve cleared it up.


    I think Rachel’s under massive stress though, death threats from Klanspersons because of her blog,
    that’s why she took her university affiliation off her page, etc. It’s not an excuse for victimizing people and I don’t think it’s at all fair that as many people as do, take so many quite cheap shots at you – I’m just saying, I think R’s also being put through the wringer.
    Which again is why I sometimes feel like retiring – too many anonymous meanies out there, feeding pain and feeding on it.

  16. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 24, 2007 10:30 pm

    Her act was irresponsible and it opened an opportunity for others to bully, demonise (as you stated) and to project their internalised hatred onto me. Personally, she will get no sympathy from me because of her alleged attack. She would have before she behaved like her attackers, but not now, now that she became the attacker. She would have to remove the thread and apologise to me through email and publicly before I would consider her anything but a propagandist and most of all a misogynist. A misogynist because her act demonstrated the patriarchal structure of rolling shit down hill. She was attacked so she found a target less popular and thus vulnerable to attack. If she would have read all the comments before she attacked perhaps she would not have attacked, but she did not, therefore she was reckless and irresponsible. But I am learning in this blog world that people like her use people like me to get readers. She had stated before she was lazy and had nothing to blog about. So what is better to jump start an abuser’s blog than to abuse. I do not wish her good health. I do not plan to devote much more time to her.

  17. Rent Party permalink
    October 24, 2007 11:14 pm

    “rolling shit down hill”

    This is what I find so incredibly distasteful. And bullying in the name of progressivism.

    The next time one of those mean threads starts I am not even going to read it.

  18. Chris G permalink
    October 25, 2007 3:43 am

    I only have one observation.

    I am a white guy with somewhat conservative views and I have NEVER been slammed on here for anything I’ve said. “Kitty” and I will go at each other every now and then over ideology but she’s never sunk to a personal attack.

    So for an alleged “professor” to do something like that only professes his/her ignorance or an intentional agenda.

    Since this was a feminist forum or blog that in which this occurred, it makes me wonder if this professor isn’t really just someone just trying to “divide and conquer”. One of the best ways for those to stay in power is to have those that aren’t in power keep fighting amongst themselves.

    What? You think K hasn’t taught me anything in all these years?

  19. Chris permalink
    October 25, 2007 3:45 am

    Oops…wrong sign in on my comment, LOL.

  20. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 25, 2007 4:28 am

    Chris, next time I disagree with you or fail to actually read what you said, I will come to my blog and make a post titled “Ignorant Ass Chris Needs to Take a Sociology 100 class, Unleash the Muthafuckin’ Self-haters on His Dumb Ass like Yesterday!” Afterwards I will feel so smug, and will no longer feel threatened that someone dared to be unapologetically theoretical in my presence.

  21. Heart permalink
    October 25, 2007 4:49 am

    But I am learning in this blog world that people like her use people like me to get readers.

    Yes. It’s the one sure way to get readers to comment, eh?

    Some of us have been receiving death/rape threats for months, very serious threats in our real lives. That has gone unnoticed by a large percentage of the blogosphere, including Rachel. It sucks, but whatever, it is duly noted. This is what we didn’t do–we didn’t use it as an excuse to demonize or bully women.

    There is no excuse for this.


  22. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 25, 2007 3:48 pm

    I asked Rachal to remove comments claiming I am someone that I have not claimed. She refused my request. Yet, she expected the bigot site to comply with her request to take her picture down. She leaves me no choice but to defend myself on my terms.

  23. Heart permalink
    October 25, 2007 5:29 pm

    Kitty, completely understandable.

    We are going to have to figure out how to protect ourselves against this kind of no-holds-barred attack. Often enough, otherwise decent women participate or just stand by silently and say nothing as someone slanders, defames, and straight up lies. I have watched recently as someone egregiously lied about me all over the internet, some of the people “reading” knew these were lies, and yet they didn’t call the liar out. I don’t know whether they were afraid they’d be next if the confronted the person or if they didn’t care what was true, the smear campaign was all that mattered to them. Really, some ugly stuff.

    It is all so damaging and nobody, not you, not me, not anybody should ever have to put up with it.

  24. Professor Zero permalink
    October 25, 2007 8:26 pm

    Well I am considering putting up a post about this whole thing. Because I started arguing on that site and it is really just a waste of time. And they really are just using progressivism as a cover for abusiveness.

  25. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 25, 2007 9:53 pm

    Many must be fanfic writers, because conclusions were drawn so far off from the original topic that one could only call it Fiction. Accusations, calling people other people, and, the lack of reading exactly what was written. I love how a declaration specifically focusing on the internet turned into real life. Not to insult some of the good people I know with PhDs, but here is an example of people who are getting PhDs. People who cannot read and people who cannot imagine others not thinking, feeling, and believing what they preach as the gospel.

    My declaration had a two-fold purpose. First, to illustrate that people can claim any race they want on the internet and no one would be the wiser, hence making a call for faceless internet testimonies a flawed research and, second, to declare that my intent is to blog without an identity that may cause people to read my words with preconceived notions. It is my goal to create a space where my words are not tainted by expectations of a certain race, culture, etc. One would assumed I said the sky was falling or that there was evidence of the Anti-Christ possessing the pope. I do feel sorry for all the internalised hatred though, I really do, it is sad. It is the result of eating too many Twinkies (must watch Chris Chambers you tube at Nat Turner’s Revenge to understand the reference).

  26. Rent Party permalink
    October 25, 2007 11:29 pm

    OK so I checked the scene over there. It is weird. I know it is supposed to be conscious people of color but I my impression is ‘raucous white trash drinking beer.’ They also seem to be like accusing Puritans or something.


    I am just a construction manager now but I did go to college. What is weird about the discussion over there is that it does not go above the freshman level of things.

  27. Professor Zero permalink
    October 25, 2007 11:54 pm

    I think I have figured it out: it is the literal mindedness. There was a discussion of cultural appropriation at the Free Slave’s over a year ago and Rachel was there saying, in part, that she thought she could do almost whatever (white privilege!), and also taking everything overly literally – “you mean I can’t eat okra soup?”

    And yes they are being abusive. And yes it is possible for a white woman to be abused by a group, even if some members of that group are not white. But the key to the whole thing is the literal mindedness. And: I don’t think that group is very well read, very experienced, very mature, etc.

    The other part of it that bothers me is who they pick to victimize. I am the one from the slaveowning family, with all the generations of white privilege and so on, and I’ve said so on my blog and on others’.

  28. Professor Zero permalink
    October 26, 2007 12:04 am

    P.P.S. “We must pity, I believe.” Unbelievably, I’m starting to think this. I normally don’t because I hate to condescend. But it’s, like, the intellects over there are *weak.* Here I may or may not agree with everything or relate to every single thing but what is said is *sharp.* Those people just repeat standard facts as brilliant new truths – and misapply them, too.

    Anyway, it is the general literal mindedness which is the key – and then also they seem to be very new to the concepts, they just learned about white privilege yesterday, etc.

    But: I’m not going to go argue anywhere else, only if people do it on my blog. Too aggravating.

  29. Rent Party permalink
    October 26, 2007 1:27 am

    And also – I guess it comes down to 2 things. One, I admire and feel oddly protective of Kitty, as a person who really makes & has always made a serious effort toward ideas & toward others, and who thinks originally rather than mouthing formulae.

    Two, people in abuse mode can’t be spoken to rationally, that’s how you can tell for sure what they’re in. On a superficial level of course they appear rational: everyone has a culture, yadda yadda, but really they are into not hearing their interlocutors and putting people down, very smooth.

    I would also like to point out Rachel’s power move on Feministe – the poster asked people to e-mail her and gave an address, Rachel said come to my site and find my e-mail there … classic I’m a professor, you’re an undergraduate move. (“You can come to my site” – yes, anyone can, it is on the Internet.)

    Et cetera. This whole thing was very upsetting because it was mean.
    And the master’s tools can never dismantle, etc.

    And I, Rent Party, have never identified by race either, and I am 50% fictional, which is to say I am a character of my own invention. And I could have put up a post about the ignorance of Rachel on narrative voice, but why? what would be the point of that? It would be against my religion, anyway!

  30. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 26, 2007 2:11 am

    Oh, you must be white Rent Party because NO, NO, Absolutely NO person of colour would ever say anything that you just said. /sarcasm. In other words, in her world poc are a monolith, have one mind, one way of acting, speaking, and conveying. “I categorise people by the boxes I have made for them, like duh! Get with the program you ignorant ass white woman and pass me my okra soup, it keeps me in touch!” said the enlightened sociology professor.

  31. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 26, 2007 2:16 am

    I would also like to point out Rachel’s power move on Feministe – the poster asked people to e-mail her and gave an address, Rachel said come to my site and find my e-mail there … classic I’m a professor, you’re an undergraduate move. (“You can come to my site” – yes, anyone can, it is on the Internet.)

    Yes this is true, right at the time she was complaining she had nothing to blog about. I noticed she did not resurface at Field Negro’s until he was featured in a L.A. article. Hmmmm…

    Opportunist/Imperialist (is there a difference?)

    Seriously though, the crowd will be gone when there are little to no attacks. I see it all the time. One post, 50+ comments, the next post 0, the next post 0………..We call that a pattern.

  32. Rent Party permalink
    October 26, 2007 3:03 am

    FN, too black, smart and not academic, it would be out of depth.

  33. Professor Zero permalink
    October 26, 2007 3:39 pm

    I guess you are right, it is the attacks. But I learned yet again: you can’t engage productively with abuse, and more importantly: I am so glad I am in the deep general area of the humanities, and the sophisticated, difficult field of literature. I am so practically and societally oriented that sometimes I think I should have gone into the social sciences *but no* – in the U.S., those people are so narrowly American, and they are so ploddingly literal-minded. There are *great* reasons why I am in what I am in, and I’m grateful.

  34. Heart permalink
    October 26, 2007 5:07 pm

    Well, I finally ventured over there. I note that everybody lost interest when a man laid down the smake. I think what Ken said was great, but think the response is also somewhat telling.

    I think that a lot of people there do not know much about history. Has anyone read anything, for one example, about pre-Mayflower black history? African and European, including British, kings were trading women, black and white, amongst each another going back to before the 10th century, women being the rough equivalent of donkeys, gems, or spices.

    And I guess trafficked women, whenever in history they have been and are trafficked, until today, are not oppressed if they are white.

    Dear god, the mind boggles.

    I wanted to say, Professor Zero — though I may have misunderstood a reference to me in all of that back and forth, definitely (!); I didn’t read every post carefully –that I don’t believe gender trumps race and never have. I think even thinking in those terms is wrong headed, and I’ve never written anything like that, nor would I. That particular bit of blogan legendry has to do with what I’ve written from time to time about my own reality. I am not supposed to do speak ill of my abusive exes,one of whom nearly killed me, but if I do, and if, as you’ve described so well, I do not incorporate a line-by-line elucidation of what amounts to what should be, among progressives, a foregone conclusion, I am then accused of all manner of absurdities. And woe, whenever I have attempted to explain my reasoning or thoughts about that, it is not allowed.

    I wanted to say that because I have an opportunity here to set that record straight with people whose views matter to me. It doesn’t make sense, in my opinion, ever, to say gender “trumps” race (or for that matter that any oppression “trumps” any other.) Webs don’t work that way. That’s not the way my own feminism works for other reasons, either, that’s not my paradigm, this very linear, narrow, I’d say tunnel vision approach to extremely complex, multi-layered issues. Talking about one of the layers does not mean I think that layer “trumps” any other layer. It means one cannot address every layer and complexity in each and every blog post (!) and today I’m talking about one layer. The entirety of a person’s blog has to form the context for each new post that is written, it seems to me, but where the goal is not more light, but more heat, the situation is pretty hopeless.


  35. Professor Zero permalink
    October 26, 2007 8:07 pm

    Heart – I’m the one who secretly thinks race trumps gender even though I know the reasons why one should not think that way!!!

  36. Professor Zero permalink
    October 26, 2007 8:42 pm

    P.S. “I am not supposed to do speak ill of my abusive exes,one of whom nearly killed me, but if I do, and if, as you’ve described so well, I do not incorporate a line-by-line elucidation of what amounts to what should be, among progressives, a foregone conclusion, I am then accused of all manner of absurdities. And woe, whenever I have attempted to explain my reasoning or thoughts about that, it is not allowed.”

    Yes – this is what is so ridiculous, and frustrating. And I just realized – it is what we used to call a “liberal trip” – ! 😉

  37. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 26, 2007 11:01 pm

    black and white, amongst each another going back to before the 10th century, women being the rough equivalent of donkeys, gems, or spices.

    Helen of Troy anyone?????

  38. Rent Party permalink
    October 29, 2007 9:34 pm

    H of T was a queen and could presumably mistreat servants with impunity.

    Kitty, do you sometimes give people credit for the willingness to be rational when they really just want to emote? Assume that they are capable of speaking and thinking at a more advanced level than they are? I do both of these things.

    The reason I do not comment at certain sites is not because I disagree with what they say, it is that they are run and populated by twenty-somethings who bring to all of this the experience of their time not mine.

  39. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 30, 2007 1:07 am

    Kitty, do you sometimes give people credit for the willingness to be rational when they really just want to emote? Assume that they are capable of speaking and thinking at a more advanced level than they are? I do both of these things.

    Yes, I see now that it has been my mistake one time too many. I hate as someone above said, to condescend, but I think the rationale is simply not there. I will know for next time, I hope.

    You are right about the experiences, the younger simply do not have the same amount, or I’m afraid the same depth as times before.

  40. Professor Zero permalink
    October 30, 2007 3:47 am

    I should know better – IRL I do know, I know that graduate students and new assistant professors are all going through phases of discovery I have already been through and that I can’t hurry them up on, they just have to go through it too.

    It isn’t just that I know more, though – it’s that I know different things. I do not know what it would be like to not remember a President before Reagan, for instance. To have gone to elementary school in the 80s, not the 60s, and where marching around saying things like “Free Huey Newton!” was not a normal occurrence as it was for us.
    We weren’t *getting* nooses at our schools, we were all happy and triumphant because it seemed the world was moving *away* from such things.

    Or not to have had experiences like this: my mother was in a radfem CR group, radical and smart but made up entirely of middle class white women. She would talk about how it was really smart on gender (and more radical than she was comfortable with) but not very good on class or race. And all of this was long ago and I more or less assimilated it, and then there were all sorts of subsequent discussions and I was already in the know.

    And I could sit around and think about it, and look up library materials on it, because Dad had a super-steady job and we didn’t have serious worries about what might happen tomorrow. (We could think about political theory and then go to the beach to calm our nerves, LOL!)

  41. Kitty Glendower permalink
    October 30, 2007 5:17 am

    Other folks have the means to calm their nerves as well, however, if they did they could not act, could not holler, could not claim to be acting out for a cause. To act out is to feel alive.

  42. Rent Party permalink
    October 30, 2007 6:59 pm

    For some reason it is looking through that thread that makes me realize how true that (“to act out is to feel alive”) is of how many people. It is revealing I suppose, but very disheartening also. I keep discovering I am far too innocent (or something like that).

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