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Open Thread 1

April 17, 2009

the-back-back-room

31 Comments
  1. April 17, 2009 9:35 am

    Of course the woman who murdered Sandra Cantu will be talked about and talked about forever and a day, and it will be used over and over again as an example of how women murder just like men do, because we all know the one woman who murders equates to the zillionaditybillionllythrillion men who murder girls/women every day.

    • April 17, 2009 12:13 pm

      That’s one of the annoying things about the media. They report heavily on unusual occurrences just because they’re unusual, which makes them “news.” But then people think those anomalous occasions are more the norm than the things that happen all the time and thus aren’t “newsworthy.” Sort of the same thing with science/psychology, where studies are usually only published/publicized if they show major results, when most studies actually show small results or none at all. Now don’t even get me started on how terrible the mainstream media is about reporting scientific studies …

    • April 17, 2009 5:34 pm

      Two words: Nancy Grace. But for some reason I feel guilty pointing the finger at her, alone. She is so into the whole good mother vs. the rotten mother.

  2. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 12:56 pm

    Ooh I love Open Thready things, they tend not to kick up my derailment syndrome so much. This was axually a post on my blog, but it’s short enough for these purposes too.

    “Today is the Day of Silence in the USofAz for the LGBTQIIMWXYZtoday’sprogramisbroughttoyoubytheletterfive community (Five is a letter because it wants to be. Get with the program). I will, coughs, not be participating. Yes my liberal heart bleeds and all that…oh the menz, the poor, poor menz.”

    • April 17, 2009 5:32 pm

      The thing about days like this, although, I try to imagine a world in which the thought of having such a day would lead you to being ran out of town, what do they really do? Is it a big enough subversion that the patriarchy cannot absolve? Then again that is not a big enough reason not to do it, because we all have to take baby steps (I guess). But still. Then there is the whole feeling like a command sent down by some commanding command. “YOU SHALL REMEMBER……forget how tomorrow you will go back to not caring about anything in the universe….BUT
      TODAY

      YOU SHALL.”

    • April 17, 2009 6:07 pm

      Silence seems like the absolute worst way to get your message across.

    • kamododragon permalink
      April 18, 2009 4:05 pm

      True to that. I never get those people who think that the Day of Silence will get their message across. I think what it’s doing more is alienating them. It’s like their alphabet soup keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point where people don’t know who’s what and what those LGBTQQIXYZ crap means anymore.

      I think political correctness has gone amok and that Common sense has been tossed out the window.

  3. Mary Sunshine permalink
    April 17, 2009 1:42 pm

    I’m here for the tea and sweets.

    🙂

  4. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 6:15 pm

    MMMM…Orange Pekoe blend, with cream, honey…devonshire cream, lemon curd, and scones (scones *are* a cake, mind you, they just transitioned, so they still taste like scones…) and erm marzipan, definitely some marzipan…and pims, because I am trans-continental (I want to be in London, so I *am* see how that works? ) and the trans-continentalness is voiding me of my underage drinking issyews.

    • April 17, 2009 6:27 pm

      I can never hear the word marzipan without thinking of Austen’s character, Elizabeth Elliot of Persuasion. She declares (in the film, –not the book) “Molland’s marzipan is the finest in the world!” In the book, they do go into Molland’s teashop one rainy afternoon, however. We just do not know for sure if they ate marzipan. Nevertheless, I am willing to buy that they did! Who wouldn’t eat marzipan, in Bath, with warm tea?

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      April 17, 2009 10:10 pm

      Ahhhh, I’ll have what she’s having.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

  5. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 6:17 pm

    treacle tart! How could I have forgotten the treacle tart!

  6. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 6:28 pm

    Who wouldn’t eat Marzipan anywhere, screw the Romans…

  7. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 6:31 pm

    Yes, I am Romanphobic, why do you ask?

    • April 17, 2009 7:38 pm

      You probably should put that in a historical context. Because there are people, today, who live in Rome, probably even a male-woman in Rome, and you know what will follow. “YOU ARE OPPRESSING THE MALE-WOMEN IN ROME! WITH YOUR CIS-NOT-ROME-PRIVILEDGE!”

  8. April 17, 2009 7:37 pm

    Dear Bitch, PhD, Feministe and Feministing, male-women are not your friends. You can try to submit, you can try to flatter, you can try to make them feel like one of the whatever, but you will never be good enough, you will never be subservient enough. Male-women were conditioned to be men. They don’t just want to be included, they want to run shit. Whatever you say about/to them will just be thrown back into your face as not sucking their dicks with an acceptable enough effort. When/if you ever truly get the message that male-women just want to command you, run you, dictate your every move, we will be here, to tell you, we told ya so. Or, —-good luck with that.

    And while I am blasting, please stop asking for money if you are just going to turn around and talk about the things you buy. Although we all know that people buy things, the two (begging and spending) just don’t go over that well.

    • kamododragon permalink
      April 18, 2009 4:10 pm

      That is a very good comment. That should used a way to counter the male-women and the trans

    • April 19, 2009 6:56 pm

      Dear Bitch, PhD, Feministe and Feministing, male-women are not your friends. You can try to submit, you can try to flatter, you can try to make them feel like one of the whatever, but you will never be good enough, you will never be subservient enough. Male-women were conditioned to be men. They don’t just want to be included, they want to run shit. Whatever you say about/to them will just be thrown back into your face as not sucking their dicks with an acceptable enough effort. When/if you ever truly get the message that male-women just want to command you, run you, dictate your every move, we will be here, to tell you, we told ya so. Or, —-good luck with that.

      I might just get this printed on a postcard… 😛

  9. atheistwoman permalink
    April 17, 2009 7:55 pm

    I reploid to yr comment btw, I just don’t want it to get lost and have you think I think you aren’t qualified to teach high school! LOL.

  10. Mary Sunshine permalink
    April 17, 2009 10:12 pm

    Oops … moderation is happening …. any special reason?

  11. joankelly6000 permalink
    April 18, 2009 7:03 am

    See I feel like having issues with some things that get said online around the whole trans-cis thing is one thing, but I feel like what happened at the Bitch PhD site was a whole other thing. Meaning – disagreeing with any given trans woman about anything is different than someone using trans women as people – whatever you think of anyone’s politics or what they think of yours – using trans women as people to be the butt of “jokes” that are actually meant to humiliate trans women and non trans women alike – I don’t feel like that’s okay. Even if every last trans woman on the planet got on my nerves – which is not actually the case, but even if that extreme scenario were true, it would still not feel okay to me, what that BPHD lady wrote, and then how she reacted to people saying “hey that felt shitty.”

    Also, you know, it specifically included not just “trans women are suitable butts of jokes,” but also “any woman I don’t like is fair game for misogynist tactics, such as, ‘you think you’re so hot but you’re really an ugly bitch!'”

    Frankly I never knew the appeal in the first place of any of the folks who end up acting like assholes and then people pointing out their asshole-ness (Marcotte, the BPHD blogger, etc.), so I’m not feeling like OMG DRAMATIC BETRAYAL AND HORRIBLENESS. I just a) think it’s creepy when people act even shittier after their initial shitty action and b) that there is a difference between having radical feminist beliefs about transgenderism and being a person who thinks it’s okay to shit on *anybody* in the way that blogger did. I mean, I don’t feel like you would do that here? And so it made me uncomfortable to see that lumped in with your other opinions about the Feministe stuff and whatever.

    • April 18, 2009 8:30 am

      Well to be honest Joan, I did not tease out the differences between what happened at the various places, but instead, expressed an overall opinion about how no one had better say anything about a certain group of people,— period or there will be hell to pay. That is the gist of what I got out of it. Right or wrong, you better bow down and suck some dick. A demand not extended to FAB-women when we are wronged. Not saying any radical feminist would desire or demand that, but, how about at least trying to see a rad-fem position and you know not being so nasty to us. Nope, that is never a consideration.

      And you see, perhaps there would be some interest in teasing out the differences in the incidents (because gawd knows I have absolutely no loyalty to none of three I mentioned, it ain’t like any of them would bother to stand up for radical feminists when we are called hateful bitches, you know, etc) if their was a history of returning the favor, but that is not the case most of the time (if not all the time). Like, prove that you (not you, Joan) are a feminist at least periodically, instead of just worrying abut your own agenda 24/7 or stay away from the label. So, I do feel compelled to send out a little I told you so yelp, especially after the horrid appropriation of Susan Boyle that greeted our blog Friday morning. Honestly, to appropriate Susan Boyle for a trans-agenda is just ridiculously stretching it. So, yes, I do feel like it is lop-sided, that there is this, how dare you do or say anything about us that is not 100% complimentary but we will say anything about you true or not, negative or not. Which to me, borders too close to dealing with the average Joe. In other words, I ain’t trying to give when my account is too far in the negative because no one is making deposits.

      I mean, come on, it is obvious what political stance this blog takes on trans- issues. Which is, there is nothing feminist about trans-politics. Yet, there are trans-people (mostly the male at birth variety) who push to comment and link here and push to take feminist topics and demand that we look at them through their lens while refusing to look at it through our lens. To which I say, whatever, get the fuck off my tit already.

      Nevertheless, kisses to you Joan {{{kisses}}. And in case that sounds sarcastic, it is not.

  12. Polly Styrene permalink
    April 18, 2009 1:07 pm

    Yup I was just thinking EKG. No marzipan in the version of persuasion I read. And I just don’t see Ms Elliott as a marzipan fan. Persuasion really is a horrendously dark novel, which I think a lot of people don’t get.

  13. April 18, 2009 5:04 pm

    I am a “straight” married female with only male sons. From reading this blog and others,I understand that females like myself do not fit into what is generally considered a radical feminist. The sad part is that as a woman of color I do not fit into most circles of feminism. I do not deny that most men have tried to control me in one way or another even the “nice” ones. I do not deny that even though my sons are Black they still are more privileged than Black women just because of their sex. I understand that no matter how much I teach them about the struggles of females they can never fully understand what it is like to be female ,just like a white person can never truly know what is is to be a person of color no matter how sympathetic they are to the cause.

    I do agree with radical feminists that trans issues have absolutely nothing to do with feminist issues. Trans-women are not female. They might feel like they are women( whatever that means),but they can never,ever know what it is like to be me. Really, what do trans women and females have in common other maybe enjoying having sex with men? How many trans women were taught from birth that they are subservient to men? Know how it feels to have a pap -smear? a mammogram? and how it feels to carry and give birth to children and then be held responsible for their upbringing. Yes , I do understand that their are women in this world that cannot/will not give birth, I also understand that NO MAN has EVER giving birth.

    I wish no Trans-women harm and they should never be treated less than human and I believe they have the right to live their life anyway they want, but please, please do not try to FORCE me to see them as I see my mother, sisters and girlfriends. To do so is to diminish their own struggles as female born people.

  14. Polly Styrene permalink
    April 18, 2009 5:16 pm

    The day of silence is about a child who killed himself because he was bullied. And one of the things the other kids called him was ‘gay’. But there’s no indication that they were saying that because they actually thought he was gay, and there’s no indication that he thought he was either. He was a child who was being bullied, and if the other kids hadn’t called him ‘gay’ they would have been calling him somethign else. It’s completely missing the point, the kids decided to bully this other kid, and used homophobic taunts, but homophobia wasn’t the cause of the bullying, they just decided to bully him as children do. Yes it’s incredibly sad, but it would have made much more sense to have an anti bullying day.

  15. April 19, 2009 2:39 pm

    Rose, none of us “fits in” here, not the way you’re using the phrase anyway. The main idea is that we don’t celebrate that which upholds or leverages patriarchal ideologies. That’s it. Regardless of whether or not women participating here (including the authors) make whatever concessions it is we currently make, the concessions will not be excused or justified here, let alone applauded or recommended.

    I’m with you, of course, on trans politics. If only they could see it’s not hatred not to allow them to infiltrate the spaces and the discourse of feminism.

    Polly, I agree. It doesn’t make sense to go down the list of taunts that aren’t allowed. We’d have to have a day of silence for misogyny, classism, racism, elitism, ableism, sizeism, etc. And that still wouldn’t keep kids from calling each other “doody-head,” and it wouldn’t keep the bullies from stealing the weaker kids’ lunch money, so to speak.

  16. Polly Styrene permalink
    April 19, 2009 8:40 pm

    Can I also say that I’m sick of reading people saying that trans women get raped more than FAB women (how proud am I that I made up a word BTW, ok that’s enough boasting Ed). If those who say this constantly can produce some reliable evidence other than their own assertions I’d be interested to read it.

  17. Polly Styrene permalink
    April 19, 2009 8:54 pm

    The keyword there is reliable BTW.

  18. April 20, 2009 7:19 pm

    Hey Kitty,

    Thanks for responding, and I would not have thought you were being sarcastic even if you hadn’t made it clear, for the record. 🙂

    I feel like, honestly, whatever views I do or don’t share with anybody here, I do always know where you stand. And I know you’ll tell me, in no uncertain terms. And without attacking me as a person – even if you attack my stance on anything. (Which I can’t recall anything that’s gone on between any of us that would count as an attack on my stance, but you know what I’m saying…)

    I do obviously share some views with people here, too. (Also – I hadn’t seen that post you linked to in the thread about Susan Boyle.)

    One thing I want to say on radical feminism is – maybe sometimes with some people it’s “just about theory.” For me it’s not. The things I believe in and stand for that ever fall under the radical feminism header are based on my life and my experiences. The degree to which I respect and agree with other women’s radical feminist writings, which get called “theory,” is in direct proportion to the degree in which those writings or so-called “theories” articulate my lived experiences. I don’t “theorize” that consensual sex with men resembles rape, or in any sense can be said to be an equivalent experience, for instance. I have lived that, and talked about why that is.

    What I believe about, and object to in, white male supremacy is not a theory. It’d be nice also if it stopped being dismissed as otherwise.

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