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Just Jotting

December 22, 2009

I recently saw a comment by a woman who simply expressed dismay that a months-old racist incident was being revived and that white women showed no more sign of basic comprehension now than they did when the episode was still new.  Sounds like a pretty easily foreseeable lament; I mean, when have white women ever tired of beating to death issues they don’t understand without regard for the discomfort it causes those who are actually affected (and, this part about the actually affected is key; regard for black women is not the same as regard for men, or the rich, or the educated, etc.)?  White women love talking about the “third world,” child brides, female genital mutilation, the “urban poor,” etc.  And I’ve yet to see the white woman who can discuss any of these things with the least bit of sophistication or nuance.

Anyway, the blogger’s response to this very simple expression of regret was to insinuate that the woman making the comment was imposing demands on the writer of the blog!  It’s such classic white-woman pouting that I couldn’t resist putting down my own thoughts about it.  Yes, a woman says, very simply, and to paraphrase, “This is a regrettable turn of the conversation,” and the white-woman blogger responds, without the slightest hint of justification, with almost panicked defensiveness.  “Nobody’s gonna make me stop talking about it!!!  You’ll pry this racist discourse out of my cold dead hands!!!”  One can almost feel the spittle and the quick, panting breath on one’s face just reading that completely unwarranted, over-the-top response.

Now, the fact that the response was blown way out of proportion to what was actually expressed in that woman’s comment does not mean, however, that the white-woman blogger’s response was unexpected.  Oh, no!  It was, in fact, de rigueur.  White women always, and I do mean always, react to the assertion of black-woman-centered opinions, especially, but certainly not necessarily, when they’re stated by black women, with defensiveness and tears.  Always.  The defensiveness might take one of two guises – that the white women have been the victims of a brutal and unprovoked attack by brutish black women, which black-woman-centered words now make the white women fearful for their own physical safety, OR that even though the brutish black women are obviously trying to make the white women cower in their petticoats with those black-woman-centered words, why, these here are “empowered” white women and they won’t be bullied by any women spouting opinions that are sensitive to the feelings of black women.

In this incident, we have an example of the “empowered” white-woman response.  Although no demands were made of the blogger, she responds to the mere expression of the fact that one woman (and, presumably other black women and/or women sensitive to the feelings of black women) finds it lamentable that white women must continue to beat this dead horse over the head at the expense of women who understand the white women’s fumbling battery to be offensive with defiant refusal to ever “shut down” the conversation.  Where was she ever commanded to “shut down” the lamentable conversation?  Well, she wasn’t, of course, but that doesn’t matter.  When the sentiment expressed is one that is favorable to black women – especially when expressed by an actual black woman – it is an opportunity for white women to feign their victimization at the hands of black women.  End of story.

Now, I’ll end this commentary with a word of advice to any black woman, or non-black woman who gives even half a damn about black woman.  Stop going to white women’s spaces to express dismay about racist-sexism.  Seriously.  It’s like running to men’s blogs to express dismay about sexism.  These people are only ever going to clench their fists, clamp their eyelids, plug their ears, and scream beyond reason about how they won’t be “made” to stop having conversations that make black women uncomfortable, as if black women have any power over white folks and males to “make” them do a goddamn thing, especially with regard to sexism/racism.  You have to understand that white folks and males will do everything within their power to make their spaces comfortable and welcoming for their own kind – other white folks and/or males.  That is their end goal.  They don’t care if any black women ever feels at home there, although, of course, they are more than happy to have black women who swear a tacit oath never to express an opinion that is supportive of, or sensitive to, black women.   So, these lamentations and regrets and expressions of exasperation only serve to give these white women yet more spit-and-paper justification to call black women bullies.  I know it’s not fair.  I know that it’s not actually bullying or demanding or violent to just say, “Wow, this conversation is kind of pathetic and lamentable.”  But when you understand that that’s the way your comment will be read, used, and immortalized by white women in their spaces, surely it must give you cause to hesitate before taking your conversational objections up with them.

39 Comments
  1. December 22, 2009 7:10 am

    What a piece of work. To compare a black woman’s experience of racism at the hands of white women to a whining white male, and to dismiss that experience as casually as flicking away a morning eye booger. WTF?

    A white male is at the of the oppressor class (males). A black female is at the bottom of an oppressed class (females). Yet, somehow, their “complaints” are equal in derailing feminists, which I would conclude by such a comparison that the default of feminists is white women.

    • December 22, 2009 1:42 pm

      Were you talking about the part where the tenacious Aussie racist comes in to compare black women’s disagreements with white women’s “feminism” to trannies’ demands to access female spaces? My god, what more evidence do we need that white women don’t consider black women female???

    • December 22, 2009 2:19 pm

      Yes, what a comparison!

      She kept on wrongfully defining the situation. “Since when is feminism about birthday parties.” Because you know, to admit that the complaint was larger than a birthday party is to acknowledge that there is a situation that needs consideration. What better way not to answer to something than to redefine that something. Not only redefine, but redefine it to be something insignificant.

      Yet, I am still stuck on how a trannie’s (a white male) monopolization is equal to a black woman’s assertion.

    • December 22, 2009 5:21 pm

      It’s ridiculous. White women somehow manage to be pissed at black women for largely buying into the whole idea of trannies as women, yet they never examine the way that white women push black women into the arms of the trannies by CONSTANTLY likening black women to men. AT LEAST the goddamn trannies acknowledge black women AS WOMEN and not as fucking interlopers into the “feminist” movement. I can say that much for the fucking deluded males, even if they only do it for their own ends.

      And this “black women are just like men” bullshit comes from a woman who goes around promoting “mother right.” One may as well promote “sex-worker right” if you want to give women rights according to the roles men have assigned us. Yet she can’t wait to tell black women (and mistakenly at that) where *they’re* “getting it wrong.”

  2. December 22, 2009 1:01 pm

    Oh, yes, of course they believe the default feminist is a white woman – they believe white women are the default women, period. And black women definitely don’t do these white women the favor of divesting them of this delusion when they take their own issues with feminism up with WHITE WOMEN. Stop going to the white women. Stop legitimizing their delusion! Let them have their all-white-woman party and move on. For crying out loud.

    Believe me, when white women get tired of the all-white, blacks-need-not apply brand of “feminism,” they’ll come to you – and it’s a whole different ballgame on your own turf. And if they don’t ever get tired of it, who gives a shit? Most white women are going to play by white men’s rules their entire lives, regardless of what you do or don’t say to them. Begging them not to leverage racist-misogyny against you in their spaces is yet more white male supremacy.

  3. December 22, 2009 6:08 pm

    This is MY opinion, anyone with issues with it can take it to my blog.

    White women are full of shit, they’re not to be trusted and not to be taken seriously as feminists. They’re not feminists, they’re selfish, racist assholes who want equal footing with their white brothers period.

    The only kind of woman who can truly be a feminist is a woman with nothing to lose and everything to gain, and that is non-white identified woc. WOC have nothing to lose, truly, by being feminists. We don’t have white privilege to lose, we don’t have the fear of white men looking at us lower because we’re already the lowest of the low. We also don’t have a history of white men taking care of us so it’s not beaten into us to constantly be trying to show how loyal we are to them and their cause.

    Again, white women are full of shit, and no damn sister of mine. If this is at all what I’m thinking it was (cause I was lurkin around when all this mess was going down) none of us should be surprised. We all saw how our white sisters treated the black women involved. We saw how ppls safety needs were ignored, and how they were willing to do ANYTHING to keep their “feminism” in tact. smh After THAT if any black woman wants anything to do with these ppl she MUST be out her left and her right mind.

    I’ll allow them to comment occasionally at my blog, but ain’t a damn one of em my friends, nor do I care to get to know them. They’re like that friggin snake in the grass my mother always warned about when I was wee.

  4. Mary Sunshine permalink
    December 22, 2009 6:51 pm

    Margaret and Soulsistasoulja: wise words, and nourishing.

  5. Valerie M permalink
    December 22, 2009 7:27 pm

    Hi Margaret and Kitty,

    It was me who complained at FCM’s blog. I don’t know if I am the one you are referring to, but if so I wanted to address what you are saying here.

    In case there is any confusion, I am a white woman. I am a pretty irregular commenter in the feminist blogosphere, mostly because other people say what I was thinking anyway, and generally express themselves more eloquently. However, I don’t think I am so bad a communicator that what I said should have been taken so extremely out of context at FCM’s blog. I admit I was pretty surprised at the reaction to my objection.

    I understand what you are saying about the futility of confronting racism on white women’s blogs, but it can’t be right to just let this kind of thing slide by either. I do not know FCM’s blog very well and was recently impressed with her analysis of transgenderism/ transsexualism and the ensuing discussion. It amazes me that the same person can make such a C change from ‘getting it’ so completely, but here we are.

    • December 22, 2009 8:23 pm

      Hi Valerie, Margie is out for a while (and I will be out soon too), but I am letting your comment through now so it does not feel like such a delay. Margie will probably want to respond.

      I did understand that you are white. I believe you clarified that in one of the comments. Not speaking for Margie, I think she knows that do, hence, the reason she wrote:

      Although no demands were made of the blogger, she responds to the mere expression of the fact that one woman (and, presumably other black women and/or women [any race] sensitive to the feelings of black women) finds it lamentable that white women must continue to beat this dead horse over the head at the expense of women who understand the white women’s fumbling battery to be offensive with defiant refusal to ever “shut down” the conversation.

      And what I am saying next has nothing to do with this post (or if so, in a digressing sort of way). And that is how for example, you being a white woman who is “sensitive to the feelings of black women” is substituted as a stand in for what Loretta (and anyone co-signing her) wishes to say to a black woman. Note how hyperbolic and immediate the response was to you about how you were not going to shut down the discussion. As if a pro-black woman’s assertion is grounds to prepare for a wildebeest stampede. Or in other words, bracing oneself to fight with men. What is such a reaction implying?

      I have major trouble with allowing Loretta Kemsley’s comments to stand. I would have deleted them immediately. They are racist as hell. Now, even if one were to entertain the notion that comments are allowed in order to work though a dilemma, then I would expect that the racist comments would be followed by analysis. However, that did not happen. Loretta’s assertion that black women take energy from white women is equal to how men take energy from white women (leaving out I guess the fact that black women expend energy fucking with men as well) stood without redirection from FCM.

      That’s a good point. That’s why feminists must stop playing to this audience. There is no way that we can allow men to define the focus of feminism. This is true for trans women, who still maintain their aura of male privilege, and men who think calling themselves feminists is a good way to get laid. We’ve all seen men who say, “I’m a feminist. I get to run the show.” What’s feminist about that?

      But this isn’t the only place where feminists are letting their message get diluted or appropriated. There was a recent flap caused by a couple of black women because one of them felt “abused” by white feminists who didn’t throw her a birthday party. There were lots of “you’re a racist” claims tossed at white women, including white women who were not involved.

      Since when is feminism about ensuring people have birthday parties or don’t get pushed at PE? It also isn’t about making sure men aren’t insulted or about defending porn that degrades women.

      Just like that, Loretta flicks a black woman’s concerns away. In other words, “Black women, like men, are too taxing on feminists [white women]. Just in case anyone calls me on it, I will redefine the black woman’s valid assertion and boil it down to a petty complaint about not being invited to a birthday party.” In other other words, black women are men.

      A few people questioned Loretta’s comparison, yet the blog owner, the very person who claims this

      “i go into the weeds on these issues, and i hope and expect that others will, too. to that end, i have absolutely declared war on self-identified liberal progressives who are racist, sexist, classist, or homophobic, and who cannot discuss race or gender issues intelligently”

      allowed racism to stand on her blog unchallenged in the name of “ain’t nobody [black women or black friendly women] going to shut down the conversation”.

      When a racist is allowed to spew her racism unchallenged, it is not a conversation; it is a free platform for that racist to perpetuate racism.

    • December 22, 2009 9:25 pm

      Then it’s easily surmised that FCM is also a racist. And from what I have read of her, she certainly is full of her white privilege and is happy to abuse it.

      End of story. White women, yet again, prove to us how much they hate us damn darky women. I’m not surprised, upset or alarmed by this. Both Loretta and FCM can kiss it.

    • December 22, 2009 9:31 pm

      I vaguely remember her playing some part in disrupting our reconciliation with redmegaera.

    • December 22, 2009 9:38 pm

      aahh. really now? Where can one read this? Or has it, in typical white woman fashion, been deleted?

      smdh

    • December 23, 2009 6:17 am

      Then it’s easily surmised that FCM is also a racist.

      I think that was established a while back. I was certainly satisfied of it the last time she was waving her arms about birthday parties.

      I don’t know where it happened, but I do think I remember FCM blathering about how redmegaera’s initial “apology” should have been enough for me, and how we mannish black women are never satisfied. Something like that. It might have been someone else, though; all these racist white women look alike to me, and I wouldn’t want to subject myself to a comb-through of all that white-woman whining to find out exactly where it was.

    • December 23, 2009 5:34 am

      but it can’t be right to just let this kind of thing slide by either.

      Well, there are different ways of not letting it slide, some more effective than others. One can choose to withdraw one’s participation from those places as a way of making dissent known, too, but, instead, most white women choose to continue to devote time and energy to racists, pleading with them and cajoling them, while still claiming not to tolerate racist-sexism.

      It simply doesn’t work that way. Either you’re comfortable being seen consorting with racists, comfortable spending time with them, or you aren’t. Unfortunately, most women so crave communion with white racists that they’d rather beg and plead with them as members of their group than to simply walk away. But if every woman who claimed not to tolerate racist-sexism abandoned all-white spaces in favor of devoting their energies to non-white women’s spaces, it would immediately become clear where the actual feminists were, as opposed to the racist white-woman posers. Imagine!

      Time and again, though, I’ve encountered women who fear relinquishing their place in white-women’s groups. They’d rather stand by them, under the auspices of effecting change in those spaces, instead of moving on to places where such change is already unnecessary. I find such rationalization flimsy and cowardly, at best, whether it’s women explaining to separatists why it’s so much more noble to continue to devote their energies toward changing men, OR women making excuses as to why they continue to devote their energies toward changing racists. The choice to stand by males/racists speaks to the devaluation of females/blacks, and to the over-valuation of the opinions of males/racists.

      I’m speaking generally, here, too, since, as I’ve stated, black women are as guilty of this over-valuation as are white women, despite the fact that black women are never really part of white-woman groups to begin with.

    • Valerie M permalink
      December 23, 2009 9:05 am

      You’re right, of course. I think I only bothered to try as much as I did because I still have so much to learn about anti-racism and I am shocked and confused when people I thought were right-thinking come out with such rubbish. But I shouldn’t be surprised. It wasn’t that long ago that I thought racism considered was less publicly acceptable than sexism. A function of white privilege to be so blind to it.

  6. December 22, 2009 8:40 pm

    It happens so often at white-centered “feminists” blogs. I just wish they would admit they are white-centered and stop pretending (or claiming) they are all-inclusive or open to diversity. Let one commenter come in and say, “Hey, that is racist” or “I’m not sure that is right,” such as the time the woman opposed the commenters at Twisty’s for making fun of people with language barriers. The side that benefits the most from white supremacy will always drown out the opposition to white supremacy. Every time. Yet, the same people will pat themselves on the backs for being anti-racist, anti-sexism, and anti-oppression.

  7. Valerie M permalink
    December 22, 2009 8:52 pm

    Hi Kitty,

    Thank you for publishing my comment. I figured you probably knew I was white but just wanted to be sure – I understand it could be offensive if anyone thought I was being deliberately vague.

    Yes, it was pretty obvious that ‘feminist’ meant ‘white woman’. And no one answered my question about what a black woman is to do other than call out racism directed against herself (although one commenter seemed to get it). Clearly black women have tried over and over again to stand in solidarity with white women against sexism only to be blindsided with racist attacks. It’s white women’s bigotry that is diluting the feminist movement, not black women’s objection to it.

    Thanks again.

    • December 22, 2009 9:31 pm

      “Clearly black women have tried over and over again to stand in solidarity with white women against sexism only to be blindsided with racist attacks. It’s white women’s bigotry that is diluting the feminist movement, not black women’s objection to it.”

      Yes we have, and we shouldn’t have to. And when we get fed up with white women and want nothing to do with them we’re accused of painting everyone with the samae brush and what not. White women’s hurt lil feelings are always trotted out as more important than how DEEPLY it hurts, offends, and PISS OFF black women and ALL non white identified woc that said white women are racist, or inviziblizing, or just plain assholish.

      I’ve seen what Loretta and FCM are capable of. Neither of them are anti-racist in so much as when their own white privilege abuse is questioned they balk, and minimize your lived experiences and resort to elementary school name calling. smh

      I maintain that white women are full of shit and not to be trusted. I’ll give you all about as much trust as the width of a dime turned edgewise.

      These women are not feminists they’re white women crying about the evil powerful black women who are tired of their racism and their fucked-up0ness. What else is new?

    • December 23, 2009 5:48 am

      I’m actually of the mind that it’s never really useful to deny blackness among white folks, any more than it is to deny being a lesbian among straights. Sure, it would be offensive and appropriative among black/lesbian women, but I can’t really see a need to ever proclaim whiteness or heterosexuality when upholding pro-black/lesbian notions. All it does is establish a level of rapport with the whites/straights that is unavailable to self-loving black/lesbian women who find themselves in the same situation, of defending black/lesbian women’s humanity against privileged white/straight women.

      Of course, refusing to deny being black/lesbian is an entirely different thing than saying outright that you are black/lesbian when you aren’t. I do want to stress that it’s not up to pro-black/lesbian folks to ease the minds of racists/lesbian-haters, though, by putting to rest any assumptions they might be making.

    • December 23, 2009 7:12 am

      In a white supremacist hetero-patriarchy to keep declaring “I’m not a lesbian/black” can easily be absorbed as meaning, something is wrong with being lesbian/black.

      If it can be absorbed, it does not subvert.

    • Valerie M permalink
      December 23, 2009 9:15 am

      Yes indeed. It can be a bit sticky – one doesn’t want to come across like a man saying ‘sexism is bad and if I’M saying so it must be true,’ but when it’s obvious that the person you are talking to is looking for avoidance and excuses it’s best not to give them anything else to focus on, eg ‘Gotcha! You’re being deliberately vague about your skin colour!’ and then drone on endlessly in that vein, regardless of the fact that it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

      All the more reason to just say ‘well, the hell with you then,’ and move on.

      Thanks for this post, it was really helpful.

  8. December 22, 2009 9:34 pm

    ps: this one sista has asked her closest to not bring her name up in blogolandia, but FCM will NEVER be accountable for her racism this sista or any sista for that matter… for her racist hatred and fear of black women, and for how she appropriates our experiences like a fuckin brownie badge on her vest.

    White women are so friggin gross. @@

  9. theunmarriedaughter permalink
    December 23, 2009 3:14 pm

    I’m white, very, very, small townish wonder bread upbringing white as can be. Just so you all know, I usually don’t comment on the blogs where black women are sharing their experience with white feminism, or their hatred of white feminism and white women. I do this because I feel that it isn’t my place to defend white feminism from justified attacks or tell any other woman how they are to feel or what their opinion should be. Women, contrary to popular opinion, are grown ups with brains that function and can make up their own damn minds about how they feel about race, trannies, or anything else. I am sick and tired as a white woman being told “I shouldn’t feel that way” by men of all races, and white women colluders.* I can only imagine or maybe I am projecting, that it is 100 times as frustrating for a black woman to hear the same refrain, especially from white women feminists who are supposed to be on her side. So, I read, keep my mouth shut, think about the posts/blogs written by black women/woc and ponder these things a lot.

    But, sometimes, I do have opinions and want to share them.* So, here goes.

    I confess I don’t get this post, and no, it is not the blog writers/owners job to explain to me. Like Feminism bloggers often say to men, “it’s not my job to educate you on why you are an asshole.” Likewise its not black women’s job to explain to me why my whiteness pisses them off. But here is my take, asked rhetorically:

    Let me get this straight here, what you are saying with this post, is that a white woman feminist will betray her black women allies** because of their color? And in the name of changing racist sexist men, white women will stay with their white only groups, and use “but if we just use logic, we will have peace, prosperity, and the death of the patriarchy and their will be unicorns and rainbows for everyone? So, you know, don’t be so crass and share your “hatred” and “racism” on my blog, because it makes our menfolk all uncomfortable?”

    If the answer to the above question is “why yes, UMD, that is what white women do.” My response is what the hell is wrong with white women feminists?

    I don’t know, I am thinking things out loud again, and working it all out in my head, so I apologize if I don’t make sense.

    *colluders is said with a type of angry compassion towards women, not as a judgment. And is it even possible to have angry compassion? Because that is what I feel a lot of towards women these days, angry at their forced choices in the system while still having a deep understanding and empathy at why they make those choices.

    **Yeah, I know, if I want to share my opinion in a public space on this, I should get my own blog. Or update mine.

    ***I didn’t know how to label women to make my meaning clear. I think, from what I read, that a lot of black women don’t like to be labeled feminists, and from reading sistasoulja’s blog and some others, I get that a lot of black women chafe at the presumption by white women that black women are their friends/allies simply because they both happen to be women. But, here’s the thing, I personally will choose a woman over a man any time, even if she doesn’t identify as feminist so I used the word ally.

    • December 28, 2009 10:31 pm

      I didn’t know how to label women to make my meaning clear. I think, from what I read, that a lot of black women don’t like to be labeled feminists, and from reading sistasoulja’s blog and some others, I get that a lot of black women chafe at the presumption by white women that black women are their friends/allies simply because they both happen to be women. But, here’s the thing, I personally will choose a woman over a man any time, even if she doesn’t identify as feminist so I used the word ally.

      I was debating whether or not to respond at all because quite frankly it pissed me off, but this bit I can respond to. Its not that I don’t like to be labeled a feminist. I just wanted it to be clear that my blog wasn’t a feminist blog. I will say, though, that white women’s assumption that black women will just jump at the chance to be called their friend and ally pisses me off and lets me know how blind you ppl really are. The last sentence of your comment sums it up nicely, you as a white woman have no risk in calling a woman your ally not risks that exist for woc. There exists not a woman who can be oppressive to you unless she is white and rich. On the other hand, as a black woman, white women are definitely (in my opinion and mine alone i do not represent anyone other than me) to be regarded as an enemy until they can prove themselves worthy of trust and friendship. Generally I feel that way with anyone, but I wouldn’t ally with a white woman just because she is a woman. Her being white means she is a real danger to me as a poor black woman, and her ever present allegiance to her whiteness (as is prevalent in too many of you women) will always exist over her claims of sisterhood. I’ve seen it again and again, and I’m not in denial about it. I don’t have grand fantasies of this monolithic sisterhood. I deal in reality, and the reality is that most often the first chance white women get to sell you out, they’ll take. In the name of “feminism” and “truth” and in “defense of their name or rep” or whatever bullshit claims they can create to justify their disgusting racist actions against black women and all woc who aren’t white identified/apologists.

      The assumption that a black woman would choose a man over a woman in this last sentence was enough to make my friggin eyes swim. It always comes back to that doesn’t it? Or am I way off and reading this wrong? to me this:

      “…and from reading sistasoulja’s blog and some others, I get that a lot of black women chafe at the presumption by white women that black women are their friends/allies simply because they both happen to be women. But, here’s the thing, I personally will choose a woman over a man any time, even if she doesn’t identify as feminist so I used the word ally.”

      Reads like that age old assumption that black women choose black men over white women and that age old bullshit that white women “do” feminism better because they aren’t tied to men. And that’s utter and complete bullshit! First of all I purposely called my blog “don’t call me ya sista” BECAUSE both black men and white women are full of it! Neither one of you give a damn about black women when it comes to your own ass being called to the carpet. Black men are no brothers of mine, and white women are far from my damn sisters. Again, I speak for myself. White women have more of a reason to be tied to men as benefactors of white privilege, and you all are.

    • December 28, 2009 11:05 pm

      The assumption that a black woman would choose a man over a woman in this last sentence was enough to make my friggin eyes swim. It always comes back to that doesn’t it? Or am I way off and reading this wrong?

      I read it to mean that unmarried daughter was separating herself from other white women feminists, by saying she would never choose a man (of any race) over a black woman, —-the way many white feminists tend to do.

    • December 29, 2009 12:01 am

      Ah, thank you for that. I did think that I could be reading this wrong, hopefully UMD can confirm.

  10. pennyrose permalink
    December 23, 2009 4:29 pm

    When discussing the power that White Women have to o oppress Loretta mention a “rich Black Woman can have more power over a poor White Woman”.

    Sorry,but this reminds me of those women and men when talking about Domestic Violence directed at Women wants to throw out there how “men are also abused” or white men complaining they were passed over a job because of their “race”.

  11. Valerie M permalink
    December 23, 2009 6:29 pm

    Her reaction is almost unbelievable. I couldn’t resist seeing her reply to me saying I’m not going to visit her blog anymore. Which involved visiting her blog. But anyway.

    suit yourself valerie. but there is something awfully strange about your posts. as in, you say you want to discuss privilege, then when we carry on with the discussion you say “well golly gee, i dont know what you people are going on about!” and make extreme demands on my time, when its all i can do these last few weeks to log in and approve comments now and then. let alone write very much, myself. you are on my radar. if you thought you could come in here and call all white feminists racists, and expect us NOT to dicuss it, you came to the wrong place. i very much appreciate the discussion of privilege thats happening here, and as i told you, it will be allowed to continue. full stop.

    WTF?

    • December 23, 2009 7:03 pm

      I can say for a fact no one discussed how white women can be racists in feminism. There was Loretta asserting that the racist incident was nothing more than a hissy fit for not being invited to a birthday party, then she went on about some other rubbish, and there was something to do with introvert vs. extrovert, suggesting what I don’t know? That if you are one or the other your experiences aren’t racism? Then it just got sillier and I believe Loretta then admitted to not having the facts but of course, she had enough facts when she dismissed the racism claim. There was words dropped like “obey” which is just insulting and inferring a demand.

      And of course, whenever, and this is a warning I have been shouting for a few years, but people love to twist it up and claim it is a personal attack and that I am trying to tell people what to do, and that is, whenever Satsuma/SheilaG comes along and cosigns, you know, or should know that you are on the wrong side of a principle. She is a raving classist/racist/sexist and tries to disguise and confuse it by claiming lesbian pride. No one has to listen to me, but the proof is there. The history is there.

      Margie and I have just agreed that we have seen enough. It is just getting worse, so no need to go over there anymore for us.

      It is like the tyrannie (sic) ideals can be read from here and knowledge taken away and used, but suddenly we don’t know shit about racism.

    • December 23, 2009 8:41 pm

      “It is like the tyrannie (sic) ideals can be read from here and knowledge taken away and used, but suddenly we don’t know shit about racism.”

      But some privileged racist white woman does? Of course. They know everything about everything don’t they?

      PS: Satsuma sounds a lot like a person commenting around as dog16arama or something like that.

    • December 24, 2009 2:43 am

      It is like the tyrannie (sic) ideals can be read from here and knowledge taken away and used, but suddenly we don’t know shit about racism.

      Yes, these white women come here to cherry pick my analysis of trans-politics, go back to their white-woman spaces to have discussions about it without ever once giving a nod my way, and then have the nerve to whine about how black women are “bullying” them. Talk about taking a page from white men’s rule book.

      How about this? Stay the fuck away. Stop reading my writing, thieves.

    • Valerie M permalink
      December 24, 2009 9:30 am

      That’s true, Margaret. I have since discovered amazing posts here on trans politics. I am happy to see so many feminists (and even ‘feminists’) talking about this. It’s awful the way trans activists are trying to take over feminism and steal women’s limited energy and resources. Vampires.

    • Valerie M permalink
      December 23, 2009 10:04 pm

      Yes – sorry. Officially shutting up about it now.

    • December 23, 2009 10:13 pm

      ValerieM, I don’t think you should shut up until you are ready to shut up. If you need to work it out, feel free to work it out. When I said we decided not to go over there anymore it is because we have seen enough from that thread to know how it is going to end.

      I have strong feelings about people needing to discover at their own pace, however, I have strong self-preservation feelings telling me when something is no longer beneficial to explore but harmful. I am talking about me personally.

      FCM made it clear where she stands. Therefore, in my opinion, there is nothing to discuss with her. However, others may not see it so clear yet. Years back, I would’ve needed to go the whole nine yards. Some people can just take someone else’s word for it and some people have to experience it for themselves. Talking to Loretta or FCM right now in my opinion would be like talking to a lamp post. Satsuma as well. It is not as if radical feminism doesn’t take racist hits enough already, we have those three going on and on keeping the racist label alive.

    • Valerie M permalink
      December 24, 2009 9:24 am

      Thanks Kitty – I have always had to learn things the hard way – but you’re right. Lamp post indeed. I could feel myself getting more and more frustrated with the conversation; at first thinking I was not communicating well but then realising how defensive she was, and I thought: the difference here is that if I wanted to, I could just say ‘Fine, forget it! Let’s just talk about something else!’, and do just that. Continue to engage with her because the bigotry has no direct negative effect on me. But black women don’t have that option, do they? Black women can’t just choose to not be affected by racism. But she refuses to comprehend that. She has no intention of even trying. Either that or she thinks racism is wrong but feels SHE is in a better position to decide what is or isn’t racist. Loretta too.

      Little wonder many black women don’t want to engage with white women, if this is any example. And I take on board that it is, sadly. Disgusting, actually.

    • December 24, 2009 1:30 am

      There was words dropped like “obey” which is just insulting and inferring a demand.

      Well, just like I said. When ANY woman says anything at all that favors black women over white women, the white women take it as an opportunity to debase BLACK women. It doesn’t matter that the woman making the objection was white; it doesn’t matter that there isn’t a single black woman on that thread, so far as I can tell. FCM says she won’t “obey” BLACK women, when not a single black woman has typed so much as a txt-speech piece of a word her way. Yes, it’s black women again being painted as abusive, demanding, and overbearing, even when there aren’t any black women there.

      How people can’t see that this is racist-sexism is beyond me. And let’s not leave off the sexism part. She’s not said a word about black males, just us women.

    • December 24, 2009 1:33 am

      I mean, for that response to have made *any* sense, FCM would have to have said, “I won’t “obey” no stinkin’ white-woman anti-racists!!!”

      It still would have been hyperbolic and out of proportion to what was said, but at least it would have reflected the reality of the context, in which there aren’t any black women around to be “obeyed” or not to begin with.

    • December 24, 2009 2:00 am

      To take that particular word obey further in a feminist context, I am reminded of the campaign to rid obey from traditional marriage vows. In that sense, the repulsion/usage for the word obey will once again imply that black women are seen (treated) as men.

    • joankelly6000 permalink
      December 24, 2009 2:45 am

      Look, I don’t know how to tell you this, but white women’s thoughts are so strong that if the very idea of a black woman so much as pops into one of our heads, it creates a hologram of a vague black lady, from which white women in the vicinity get a hell of a start. If you could tone it down a little in our minds’ eyes, maybe we could get some real sisterhood going here, is all I’m saying.

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