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Open Thread 43

March 5, 2010

  1. March 5, 2010 1:07 pm

    Yahoo! Kitty’s back 😀

    I missed you, co-blogger.

    • March 5, 2010 2:07 pm

      Thanks, I missed you too. Life is different when one is somewhere without internet.

    • March 5, 2010 2:18 pm

      Well, I suppose there is not internet access in the stony lonesome. However, that would not really be the same as say not having it because it cannot be afforded and/or having no computer. Nevertheless good ol’ McDonalds has free wifi. But honestly, who wants to stop on the road, unload the laptop and hang out at McDonalds? And you know hotels/motels claim they have free wifi. The thing is, it is an unsecured line, and, this is the big one, their server throws you off if you dare open your webcam. I would like to think it is because of all the perverts, but, the little note said it takes too much of their bandwidth. Follow the money. It is always about the pretty polly.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      March 5, 2010 4:03 pm

      Hi Kitty,

      Yes, that is what I found when I was dis-established. It is only less than two weeks that I’ve had my own broadband (DSL). I have a 30 foot ethernet cable so that I can use it anywhere in my apt. 😮 Oh, and a door that locks. And no co-habitants. For that, I am “blessed amongst women”.

      McD’s wifi has a severe bandwidth limitation. Basically, it’s for email or browsing without loading images.

    • March 5, 2010 5:25 pm

      I am glad you are settled now my sweet Mary Sunshine.

      Today I chose the picture of the turquoise bracelet because turquoise has been on my mind. Well not really, but it was when I was driving through the great southwestern desert of the United States. When I was a girl, I associated turquoise with old women and Indian Reservations. That is what they were called; I don’t think it would be right if I said Native American Reservations.

      I didn’t want any part of turquoise and did not understand people who did, especially old women, the same old women who wore fruit style jewelry during spring, you know, like big honking watermelon earrings and a large watermelon necklace. (Although I must admit I see the appeal in wearing such items!)

      Then there was this twit of a girl in eighth grade, Norsha Harris. What an ass she was, honestly. She was very popular, but only I think because they lived in this house with white pillars in front. It sounds grander than it was. No one in the area actually had that much money, but it did seem grand, and she had an endless supply of clothes. One Monday after a weekend, maybe even a long weekend she brought to school several pieces of turquoise jewelry with the tags still attached. You know how some jewelry used to have a sticky fold over, such as on a ring that would not be removed until purchased. She was not wearing any of it, just going on and on about how this piece was $16 and this one was $14 and another a whopping $24. What a fucking little braggart. Nevertheless, a few years later her parent’s house was raided and mom and dad were hauled off to the slammer for dealing drugs.
      Therefore, I never really considered wearing turquoise jewelry. But after giving it a good gander, some pieces can be quite pretty. I saw a big sign in New Mexico saying, “Turquoise jewelry sold here.” However, I really didn’t have the money to spare, I was on a mission, and I didn’t have the time to stop and browse either. Maybe one day I will actually look at a piece and consider owning it. Though, I will not buy it if I am not going to wear it.

  2. March 6, 2010 6:53 pm

    It’s amazing how both males and females cannot bother with feminist blogs with topics concerning injustices toward females, but will swarm to a feminist blog when there appears to be a slight against a male, –any male at that. WTF? I honestly believe there are females who want to be dominated by males.

    And you want to know what else? I think if some type of study was done concerning what women were quick to call CPS on other women, it would be proven that more women who are the mother of boys run to CPS about “bad mothers.”

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      March 6, 2010 7:16 pm

      . . . more women who are the mother of boys run to CPS about “bad mothers

      Hmmm …. wondering what makes you suspect that.

      Off the top of my head, I suspect so because breeders of males are anointed as Mothers Extraordinaire by the prick-ocracy (and so placed in a position of superiority and authority over mere breeders of females), whereas breeders of females-only exist in positions of mere horizontal hostility with respect to each other.

      I am myself a breeder of (a) female(s)-only. Hence my use of the language as I have done to make the point clear, emphasizing *who* and *what* gets to define motherhood on this planet.

      Do you have similar thoughts?

    • March 6, 2010 7:23 pm

      Yes I have similar thoughts and I have experienced it too. In the last month I’ve witnessed a mother of boys calling the CPS on an innocent mother, and two mothers of boys saying they will call CPS at the drop of the hat as well. I read on line too how quick women threaten to call CPS on other women. One time, simply for what a mother had said. Said! Not did, but said. And CPS looks at you stupid when you ask do they ever charge anyone with frivolous accusations. Because that would take up too much time and paperwork, when all of their time and energy is already spent on investigating the initial accusations, so they are just relieved when it turns out not being a serious case.

    • March 6, 2010 7:28 pm

      And the thing is, the mother of boys, sons are now adult male fuck ups. So, if we were to get technical, it does not look like mama was so hot on her job,if not an out and out failure, but now thinks she knows what is best for other women with children.

    • March 7, 2010 5:13 am

      I’ve seen this too. I have a cousin who at one point had only daughters. She was adamantly against the thought that anyone should call CPS on another mother. Then she had a son, and all of a sudden she was threatening to call CPS on every woman who pissed her off. It was so bizarre. And, of course, she was ecstatic to be pregnant with a male child. She went on and on about how she had done her part and could stop having children after the birth of the male.

    • March 7, 2010 7:54 am

      You know, I often think about the concept of violence, political and social aspects of violence and how men like violence simply for violence sake, but, sometimes, I must admit, I conclude that the only reasonable outlet I have is to pop someone in their damn mouth. And I cannot honestly say that if I was in someone’s presence that I would not do just that. Therefore, I have to stay away as a form of prevention.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      March 7, 2010 1:47 pm

      Heh. I hear you.

      I’d rather br a recluse in a tiny apt, than in jail.

    • March 7, 2010 7:20 pm

      Yeah, Kitty, apparently male interest is the new feminism. One feminist blog’s most pressing concern – only concern as a matter of fact – on the topic of three transgendered males having a reality show where they go “help” poor ugly females become more authentically feminine and beautiful…was that the transgendered males might be treated poorly.

      Of course a lot of women want things the way they are, exactly as you say and as Margie says, regarding prized pet status. There is simply no other explanation for why male supremacy remains intact. Males are not “naturally” smarter or more capable, and modern weaponry makes the relative differences in physical strength beside the point. Those who aspire to separatism would not be attacked so vehemently and viciously *by females* if a lot of/most? female people weren’t intentionally invested in the subjugation of all females to males.

      I do love all kinds of women regardless, but I become more convinced by the day that most women are as much the enemy of female liberation from males as males are. And that the purpose of my feminism is to at least be another person on the planet for the few of us who would otherwise be pretty lonely on this front. I have little if anything in common with feminists who view most women as like-minded “sisters” or unenlightened brainwashed victims who are worth saving and who are able to be saved. I have nothing at all in common with feminists who think hitching their wagons to male interests of ANY kind will accomplish anything at all besides…male interests.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      March 7, 2010 8:42 pm

      I become more convinced by the day that most women are as much the enemy of female liberation from males as males are

      Yes! 😦

      I am so disheartened to know this, yet the truth is inescapable.

      My glory days of trusting other women have been short but sweet. Reality is such an intruder.

      the purpose of my feminism is to at least be another person on the planet for the few of us who would otherwise be pretty lonely on this front

      {{{ Joan }}}, I join you in that purpose.

  3. March 6, 2010 11:46 pm

    WTF? I honestly believe there are females who want to be dominated by males.

    YESSS!!! HELL YES. I have been feeling this way for a long time and was too chicken shit to say it (look at that me too chickenshit to say somn.)

    Kitty, I have missed you too! 🙂 So glad you’re back, I think Margie and I were feeling rather alone without you.

    Today I went to a shop that features items made by different artists from around the world and stumbled on some Haitian steel drum art. I have plenty of this stuff at home that people send to me here from there, but at this store they were featuring a piece for $235 omg! No one back ‘home’ would ever make so much. It made me question the practices of this place, but then I saw that it was a special thing they were doing to assist Haitian artists and I relaxed. Anyway, I saw some jewelry that looked just as nice as this piece at that place.

    • March 6, 2010 11:46 pm

      That last bit was so random. I think I lost my point… anyway just glad you’re back. Was feeling overwhelmed here. 🙂

  4. March 7, 2010 5:19 am

    And, yes, I’d say most women want to continue being dominated by males. They just want benevolent domination instead of the terrorizing kind we have now. And the few women who actually live under relatively benevolent male dominion go around advocating that women under more violent rule fight to obtain the same prized-pet status that rich/white/educated women enjoy, rather than freedom. They never address the issue of prized-pet status depending upon a majority of abused pets, let alone the fact that even pampered pets are tethered.

    • Pseudoadrienne permalink
      March 7, 2010 8:31 pm

      Internalized masochism; it’s the first form of “psychotherapy” that girls receive and it continues throughout their existence, and is perpetuated by [male]civilization and their female enablers (their pet-class). And yet I have met women who possessed enough independent intelligence to know how beneficial radical feminism and separatism can be their existence and the lives of their female descendents, but since being a radical feminist or separatist means ‘da Boyz and Menz’ *not* liking them and continuosly struggling/opposing androcracy and misogyny, it’s turns them off to the idea of their own liberation. They know the “costs” of being a radfem and separatist as well as their liberatory benefits, but the tasks that come with being a free female agent standing against male civilization’s assaults on female-humanity is too daunting (and “unsexy”, “unstylish,” and “dykish”). So they discard their independent knowledge and capitulate to male domination, and hope that it’s “benevolent”. Perhaps their internalized misogynist masochism overpowered them in the end or they were too afraid to endure a seemingly never ending struggle against male civilization.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      March 7, 2010 8:35 pm

      PseudoA: Every word you say, yes! yes! yes!

    • Pseudoadrienne permalink
      March 7, 2010 8:35 pm

      Ack! Sorry for the typos.

    • March 8, 2010 7:12 pm

      They just want benevolent domination instead of the terrorizing kind we have now. And the few women who actually live under relatively benevolent male dominion go around advocating that women under more violent rule fight to obtain the same prized-pet status that rich/white/educated women enjoy, rather than freedom. They never address the issue of prized-pet status depending upon a majority of abused pets, let alone the fact that even pampered pets are tethered.

      Yeah, I gotta say I agree with you here! This is how a lot of hetero’s react to seperatism. Like what kinda woman would ever truly NOT want to be dominated by males? As if something is wrong with women who don’t want to be dominated by males, even the “nice” domination. (shudders at the sheer stupidity in it all)

      And these same women have the absolute nerve to point out how their pet status isn’t, in fact, male domination because it’s not all icky and oppressive like what some other women let happen to them. Afterall, if it’s that bad why doesnt she just leave him and find a doodbro who will treat her the way my Nigel treats me! (omg if you only knew how it kills me to write this shit)

    • March 8, 2010 7:15 pm

      hmmm… totes didn’t mean to have that all bolded. Actually only the word ‘don’t’ was supposed to be bolded. lmao oh wow, Mary get it together gurl!

      *goes to get more coffee*

  5. March 7, 2010 7:22 pm

    also, third-ing the glad-Kitty’s-back-ness and happy to see Mary and Margie and Soulsis and everybody. xoxo

  6. March 10, 2010 12:11 am

    I’ve been sick with a chest cold for over a week. Only now do my body not ache. It seems the older I get the harder colds are. I hate them! And let one little cold be floating around in the air.

    What’s up Joan Kelly and soulsis? I haven’t been here too much. We are currently under attack by MRAs and of course the tyrannies. We can always depend on the world’s ugliest man to put our link out there and the MRAs and their female lovers are all up in arms that we dare not think of their little feelings over females first. One would think we had the power of the world in our hands how much they whine.

    • March 10, 2010 11:39 am

      Oh boy! MRAs huh? How nice! I feel so bad for them, you know how hard they have it. No one ever thinks about the men anymore, it seems like we live under a matriarchy more than a patriarchy what with all the rules restricting men’s rights to be utter and complete animals toward half the world’s population.

      FUCK EM! lol And fuck the tranny males too. How dare women want one space where we can talk amongst ourselves without being infiltrated by dudes and dudes in dresses. How dare we!

    • March 10, 2010 5:53 pm

      For real. And they act like they will not be satisfied until Margie’s head is on a stick. Because you know, there is only one author here. To think there are more than one author would be too scary. It is amazing. You don’t see the same vigor when someone justifies killing and/or aborting baby girls and the endless rape of females, but let someone assert that it is not our business to care what happens to little boys, and all hell breaks lose. Supposedly, we are now just as bad as rapists!

      Males raping and murdering females = Females asserting that they should not concern themselves with what happens to males.

    • March 10, 2010 10:55 pm

      And that author is a black woman who brazenly refers to herself as one. And if you don’t already know, white males (and all black males tranny or not) who put themselves in dresses think that of all people black women should get their self imposed “struggle.”

      Males raping and murdering females = Females asserting that they should not concern themselves with what happens to males.

      Oh always! I wonder how these fuckers end up so goddamn blind and stupid. They care not a good goddamn about what happens to little girls, and when we women express that we feel the same about boys it’s oh so wrong!

  7. March 10, 2010 2:34 pm

    Yeah I’ve had an ass full of that whole motherfucking business. I am for female people, and if others don’t want to be, I’m not hounding them with demands that they see it how I see it and do what I do and say what I say. But I am *for* female people, and especially considering that in fact the world is 99.99% full of people who are either for males, first and always, or are for “equality,” starting with their own equating of male and female people to each other in myriad ways… ESPECIALLY considering THAT fact of how things are skewed – it is all the more important and reasonable for five fucking people some fucking where to say “hi, am standing down, just going to concern myself with female people, toodle-oo,” without harassment and threats and bullying and bullshit.

    The very fact that male bodied people and their female erstwhile allies feel entitled to demand that no female person, ever, anywhere, mark herself as her own territory and pronounce it a no-energy-of-mine-going-towards-male-interests zone – that is at the heart of what I mean when I say it’s important that female people who wish to do so, concern themselves with female interests only. and that we have the right to decide for ourselves what those interests are FOR US.

    And I’m sorry you’ve been sick, Kitty, was thinking about you last night and this morning, esp. regarding your most recent post.

    As far as things with me – strange, hectic times at work and a little outside it too, but I finally learned how to use the iPod shuffle I got for my birthday 3 years ago so have been listening to all my favorite songs every morning and night at home, instead of the news on the radio, and small wonder I feel somehow lighter. Maybe that’s ostrich-head-in-the-sand stuff, but it’s helping me feel less crazy right now so I’m sticking with it.

    Love all of you.

    • March 11, 2010 2:37 pm

      hee, I absolutely related to that entry, Kitty! I lucked out that my closest friend at work is a tech savvy kid, and when I was yelling at my computer, early on in the iPod Familiarity Project of 2010, she came over and answered simple questions like “how the FUCK do I get the songs that I just bought off iTunes to go into the separate little playlists I created? There’s no buttons or drop down menus or copy and paste, what the fuck is iTunes up to with this shit?” and can I just tell you that her magic words – “everything is drop and drag with iTunes/iPods. EVERYTHING,” – were their own music to my ears?

      Having read the Handmaiden’s Tale years ago, it’s true that I will always have a small streak in me of “eek, where’s this new seemingly convenient technology leading to if not STRAIGHT TO HELL!” Even so, Mac and iThis and iThat will have my loyalty for life most likely. I just love things that feel magical, and iStuff is fucking magical.

    • March 11, 2010 3:51 am

      I am for female people, and if others don’t want to be, I’m not hounding them with demands that they see it how I see it and do what I do and say what I say.

      Exactly. That’s what I don’t get. I don’t go to these people’s blogs. I don’t send them emails. Why can’t they extend Kitty and me the same courtesy? It really is ridiculous. If it’s so offensive that I don’t give a shit about males sodomizing other males, well, there are billions of other women they could turn to for a ready tit. There is really no danger that male-lovers will be swayed by my opinions. I’m not sure why they think a male-hater is going to be swayed by theirs.

      And, Joan, I am the exact same way when it comes to electronic gadgets. It takes me years to warm up to them. My mom and sister got me a digital camera a few years ago for Xmas and I never took a single picture with it. I had just taken it – and the manual – out so that I could give it a try, over 2 years after I’d received it, when I was robbed. If I’d left it where it was, the thief probably wouldn’t have found it. Oh, well.

    • March 10, 2010 11:14 pm

      smmo Says:

      March 9, 2010 at 3:42 pm
      Pimp-apologists married to feminists kinda get on my nerves.

      PS: Have a great Lent, Isabel.

      If BB has to answer for the crimes against women of some pissant cult I think it only fair that Daisy answer for the crimes against women of the Catholic Church.

      Males are so fucking warped… first of all, this BB character was a member of a cult that romanticized rape and demanded that every woman be sexually available to every man who expressed interest. These women were punished if they refused. So BB participating in the rape of these women and subjecting his wife to rape as a result of his involvment in this cult is not the fucking same as Daisy once upon a time being a catholic. Not unless Daisy somehow as a catholic was a part of a cult that raped women and she ran some shit. And if she were part of such a cult she still wouldn’t fucking be at fault because the MEN were raping the WOMEN. The WOMEN were stipped of any type of agency and were sexual slaves for the men. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

      I gotta get the fuck outta here, this shit is really messin with me. I hate stupid shit like this and you find it wherever there are men together talking among themselves.

    • March 10, 2010 11:15 pm

      * stripped not stipped. That’s how mad I am reading this crap.

  8. jamigumi permalink
    March 10, 2010 6:17 pm

    I’m a long time lurker. This blog really gets it. One thing I want to vent about is how I’ve noticed that white feminists love to make excuses for or ignore nonwhite men’s misogyny. I don’t consider myself an ally to any man, gay, trans, or nonwhite. I consider nonwhite men to be just as bad as white men. I care less about fighting for ANY man’s rights. Feminist have a history of standing up for nonwhite men and what do they get in return? Nothing but hatred. Have you seen the filth by black men on youtube wanting women to reject the gains of feminism and to be “traditional ladies”? which is code-speak for SLAVES. What’s even worse is when women agree and kiss their ass. How would these black men feel if a Klansman said “go back to picking cotton in the field you nigger!”

    Oh, but hell no that wouldn’t fly they’d come running to the black feminists they despise so much to back them up and be their ally against white supremacy! What a joke. I’m multiracial, almost like you Margaret, except my white side dominates physically, and I benefit to some degree off of white privilege and the racial hierarchy. I’ve had black men trash black women straight to my face and try to get me to join in on it, agree and stroke their worthless ego. You should see the dumb look on their face when I say to them, “Hey asshole my mother is black and so am I!” Black men tell me the most disgusting shit they wouldn’t say to a woman that looks black. Black men are huge traitors and so are liberal white third wave feminists who suck their dick and build them up. Anyway, here are some of the video’s I’ve seen that really blew me the fuck away: This one is really horrid

    Take a look at this illogical BS one. I couldn’t believe this women sell out other black women. She must want to be a black man’s prized pet Watch the whole thing.

    We need separatism NOW!. Men will not destroy the system of male domination, why would they? We should not fight racism for men either. Our fight against racism MUST be women centered, helping women that are Black, Arab,Hispanic, Asian, Native, etc against white supremacy. Nonwhite men are still men and are NOT our partners in liberation. No men are, NONE!

    • March 11, 2010 3:13 am

      Hi jamigumi, welcome 🙂

      I did want to clarify a few things, though. The rapist who impregnated my mother was not white. He just wasn’t black. I was raised from infancy by my mother and the black man she married. I had no idea the man who married my mother wasn’t my father until I was quite old. So, I would never call myself “multicultural.” The only culture that influenced me was Black American culture, and the only race I’ve ever known as my own is the black race.

      Also, while I agree that perhaps white women should keep non-black women in mind in their fight against racist-misogyny, as I’ve said on a couple of other threads, black women’s concern should be self-preservation. The Arabs, Latinas, Asians, and aboriginals you mention are in large part just as anti-black as white women. I’ve traveled enough to know.

    • JamiGumi permalink
      March 11, 2010 12:36 pm

      Yes black women should absolutely focus on black women! I didn’t mean anything different. I meant that feminists in general should focus on woman’s suffering caused by white supremacy. The problem I had in my mind was intersectionality and how it’s been used to exploit feminism to center around men, most recently being trans. It’s also been used as an excuse for white feminist to ignore black men’s misogyny, and be an ally to them. I’ve also seen that feminists who don’t consider any men to be feminists but will allow them to be “allies”. I thinks that’s wrong, men can NOT be allies, no matter how oppressed they are.

    • March 12, 2010 4:16 am

      Well, we agree on that. Too many women are fooled by the theft of feminist rhetoric by disabled males, and nonwhite males, and so on. I just get wary whenever all of the nonblack women are inserted into a conversation as mere victims of racism, when the fact is they benefit as well.

  9. March 10, 2010 11:02 pm

    Today I went to a beauty supply store to get some items because I’m getting my hair braided. While walking (and talking on my phone to a friend) some DBR asshole decides he wants my attention, and you know when males want your attention whatever the FUCK you’re presently doing must cease so you can hear what they have to say! Well I don’t have any good sense so I kept walking and talking to my friend. Asshole calls out:

    “I said how you doin pretty lady? It’s ok, maybe next time you’ll have some time for me and will talk to me. You make sure you have a good day now. Well who the fuck pissed you off, shit I’m only tryina pay you a compliment baby damn. Well fuck you then anyway you ugly black bitch.”

    End scene.

    Normally that is the point were I would’ve lost my fuckin mind and cussed his skinny ass the hell out. However I’ve gotten into enough fights that way and have learned you never know what these fuckin idiots got up their sleeve and it isn’t safe to be ballsy. So I just kept walking came home and did my thing. Who the fuck died and made black men the police of black women and our expressions? If I was having a bad day, if someone pissed me off, it’s none of your goddamn business. But of course something must be wrong with me I must be upset to not be speaking to him and just taking my anger out on him. It couldn’t ever be that I’m completely uninterested in your sorry lil existence and could care not whether you lived or died. It could never be that I just wanted you to leave me the fuck alone it has to be that I’m upset, or uppity or ignorant. It cannot be that I know well (and have known this from a very young age) that engaging the petty “compliments” is just taking the bait and means, in their minds, that you’ve signed on to be harassed by them. No it has to be that I’m hateful, uppity, a black bitch, and my favorite, a lesbian. Cause the only woman that could resist their “deliciousness” (fuckin gag) is a lesbian, and oh boy don’t ever say you are a lesbian, don’t even hint at it whether true or because you think it will save your ass ’cause then you have to hear shit like “baby I can change that. don’t you get tired of them rubber d*cks?”


    • March 11, 2010 1:49 am

      of all the fucking…

      I just as bitching that at 42 years old, I’ve never once in my life seen a male tell another male “Smile!” when they come across each other, as acquaintances or strangers, and that the day I DID see such a thing, I would stop having the urge to punch every single male who says it to me, in the balls, every time.

      And what I hate extra for, is what you say, soulsis, about how it’s not even safe for us to say “fuck you” back to people who are calling us fucking names and telling us “fuck you.”

      I hate that you had that experience, and that all of us have had it a million times over.

      But no, you’re right, fucking people who monitor this blog with a manufactured and misplaced sense of moral outrage at the nerve, THE NERVE I TELL YOU, of female people wanting to be left the fuck alone: We are monsters! Man-hating, baby-boy-slaughtering monsters! go fuck your idiotic selves.

  10. Mary Sunshine permalink
    March 12, 2010 1:08 pm

    A new twist on trans. Just came upon this article in the Sydney Morning Herald.

    Here’s a link to the original story with photos:

    Below is the printable version:

    Sexless in the city: a gender revolution

    Joel Gibson
    March 12, 2010 – 3:00AM

    THIS Mardi Gras, Norrie received a gift that no other androgynous person in NSW has had before.

    The night before the parade, the postman brought a certificate from the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages that contained neither the dreaded ”M” nor its equally despised cousin, ”F”.

    Instead, it said ”sex not specified”, making the 48-year-old Sydneysider, who identifies as neuter and uses only a first name, the first in the state to be neither man nor woman in the eyes of the NSW government.

    Because Norrie was born in Scotland (and used the surname May-Welby), it was not a birth certificate but a Recognised Details Certificate – the version given to immigrants who have changed sex and want it recorded.

    The law had not considered that anyone might want neither sex recorded but was able to accommodate the request when presented with evidence from two registered doctors that Norrie was physically and psychologically androgynous.

    Norrie has since begun doing the rounds to have all offending records changed.

    ”I went into the bank and the woman’s eyes lit up when she saw the certificate, and she said, ‘What a good option’,” Norrie said yesterday.

    Centrelink was flummoxed and had to call in computer programmers to tackle the task, but agreed to find a way.

    Norrie was registered as male at birth, began hormone treatment at 23 and had surgery to become a woman – but has since ceased taking hormones, preferring to live as neither male nor female.

    ”It’s not a detail I think should be part of my identity,” neither he nor she said. (Norrie prefers ”zie”.)

    ”I think there are a lot of people who would like to have this kind of certificate and not just people who are physically different. Many women would like to have them because sex can so often lead to discrimination.”

    A spokeswoman for the Attorney-General’s department confirmed it was the first such certificate to state non-specified gender, and that even intersex children have their sex determined within weeks of birth.

    Tracie O’Keefe, from the transgender group Sex and Gender Education, called it a breakthrough for children whose doctors and parents are confused about their sex at birth and are often operated upon.

    A Catholic ethicist, Nicholas Tonti-Filippini from the John Paul II Institute, said birth certificates should also record no gender in such cases, updated with ”any changes to phenotypic gender”.

    He said there was a trend against the practice of selecting a sex for intersex children, which could mean more androgynous people in future.

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