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Bigotry

November 3, 2010

You know, I get tired of people saying that intersectionality is a cover for “what about the men.”  The fact is that *feminism* is itself a cover for “what about the men.”  Most feminists use feminism as a way of justifying all manner of concern for males.  For most “feminists,” feminism provides a forum to discuss how male supremacy “hurts males too,” and to think of ways to save the poor males, whether sons, husbands, boyfriends, pimps, or johns, from themselves.  It’s a forum for enumerating the ways in which male supremacy is not the fault of individual males, and for encouraging women to educate the misogyny out of the males in their lives.  It’s a space for the self-congratulation of women who have found males who are willing to “listen” (while they’re fucking their “teachers,” of course).

So, it seems more than a little bigoted to only point out the male-centricity of women who are marginalized by straight/skinny/white/professional/young-and-able-bodied women.  Hell, straight/skinny/white/professional/young-and-able-bodied women are just as male-centric as any other woman calling herself a feminist, if not more so.  So, obviously intersectionality does not cause concern for males.

The fact is that unless a woman is a separatist, her “feminism” will be about and for males.  And there’s only one reason to focus on intersectionality when the real division is between non-separatist women and Separatists.  I think we all know what that reason is.

27 Comments
  1. November 4, 2010 4:32 am

    Love that, Margaret! Love that Margaret! An inclusionary Lesbian (especially Separatist) community is far smarter, more interesting, less boring, more creative, more loving, and more fun.

  2. soulsis permalink
    November 4, 2010 8:43 am

    So whats the point then of feminism? If the only *real* female centered feminism is that of lesbian seperatists, does this mean that lesbians *do* feminism better? does it mean that non-lesbian seperatists should give up? Because hetero women aren’t going away… no matter how much discussion of heteronormativity and privilege, hetero women are NOT going away. Heterosexuality is not going to end, and damn maybe this is really low but male supremacy isn’t going away either. It hasn’t even taken a vacation yet, it for damn sure won’t just end.

    I am asking this, rhetorically, because I have really been questioning for myself what the point of feminism is and if it serve a purpose anymore. I have been questioning “what have i contributed to feminism and women’s lliberation” and also “what can i contribute.” To be honest, what it has come to boil down to is who’s madder at who, which blog is harassed by trannies, and which woman is a racist/lesbophobic/male centered etc. Maybe its just the burn out talking, but it seems like there really is no point. Women are going to live their lives, hetero women are going to be hetero no matter how many names their called, lesbian women are going to be lesbian no matter how many names their called, and males will always be males no matter what woman thinks she can save them, teach them, show them the error of their ways!

    it all just seems pretty pointless and i think my brain is giving up on me. I think that because of the feminist movement women’s lives in general are better under male supremacy than they were, but that didn’t stop the endless assault by males. Its like the gains just made women as a class an even bigger target, especially since males can always remind us they gave us the right to vote (i know i’m not the ONLY woman who has heard a man say that…. they gave… like whites giving blacks our freedom.)

    I dunno… maybe I’m over the whole internet feminism scene. I’m so tired of seeing the same old shit, the in-fighting, the name calling, the white women stalking black women who dare to call their racism, racism. Its fuckin tired and old! No one is going to make a racist white woman a non-racist by constantly writing abt their racism. No one is going to make a hetero woman a lesbian by constantly writing abt them being hetero. There’s plenty of bigotry all around and it just seems to me like its a never ending cycle, and as such what the hell is the point? How do we live our lives under these circumstances? What is the expectation of white-identified women and het-identified women? What purpose do these two groups serve in feminism, other than some really great posts about simple easy to grasp privilege related stuff that each group misses? Does one really exist at the expense of the other completely? Is feminism really a cover for “what about the men” simply because SOME “feminist” women make that their focus? What the hell is one to do in the age of “sex positive feminism?” What the HELL is that and how the HELL is it feminism? Who has the power of naming and claiming been given to?

    sorry ladies, thinking “out loud” here, not really responding to the topic. if you want to delete this, feel free. I still hold all my same positions, nothing’s changed over here. But these are the things I have been thinking about lately with each read.

    • November 4, 2010 10:24 am

      Hi, soulsis, it’s been a while. I hope all is well with you.

      I’m sorry to hear that you’re feeling burned out. I think we all feel that sometimes. The past month or so has actually been encouraging for me, though, because I’ve learned that these discussions are spreading from the blogs and taking place in other forums. I’ve met or re-found women with whom I hope to soon work closely on offline projects and events. Having made my own stance clear here on the blog, with regard to female solidarity and the changes individual women need to make in order to achieve that, has led me to other women who share the same beliefs and willingness to set aside ego and hurt feelings in order to work together. It has been rejuvenating.

      I think, as far as het women are concerned, the only thing I’ve ever wanted from them is that they stop vilifying separatism and separatists. Het women don’t have to be separatists, but they also don’t need to constantly demonize us. They also don’t need to invisibilize us. Just because a woman isn’t willing to separate from males doesn’t mean she has to lie about separatism. She doesn’t have to say that separatism isn’t possible. She doesn’t have to say that separatism is racist, or classist. She doesn’t have to say that only privileged women have the option of separating from males. All of these things are patently untrue, and perpetuating these lies invisibilizes the women from non-industrialized nations who have practiced separatism and the poor and black women in industrialized countries who have advocated separatism.

      I think the same is true of the racist white women. You’re right, no one is going to make them not be racists. What I’d like, though, is for them to stop vilifying black women. They don’t have to like black women or agree with black women, but they also don’t ever have to speak about black women at all if they can’t manage to do so without blaming black women and black women alone for the stagnation of feminism or without placing an expectation of separatism on black women when they don’t expect it from anyone else, and in fact will make every excuse in the world for why non-black women “can’t” be separatists.

      In the meantime, though, while non-separatist women are vilifying Separatists, and while white women are vilifying black women, it’s necessary to defend ourselves.

    • soulsis permalink
      November 4, 2010 4:01 pm

      “I think, as far as het women are concerned, the only thing I’ve ever wanted from them is that they stop vilifying separatism and separatists. Het women don’t have to be separatists, but they also don’t need to constantly demonize us. They also don’t need to invisibilize us. Just because a woman isn’t willing to separate from males doesn’t mean she has to lie about separatism. “

      YESSSS!

      “They don’t have to like black women or agree with black women, but they also don’t ever have to speak about black women at all if they can’t manage to do so without blaming black women and black women alone for the stagnation of feminism or without placing an expectation of separatism on black women when they don’t expect it from anyone else, and in fact will make every excuse in the world for why non-black women “can’t” be separatists.”

      YESSS some more. It is necessary to defend ourselves from the onslaught of bullshit, i don’t disagree with that. I guess I’m saying I’m tired. And I’m saying its discouraging. What is the harm in letting lesbian seperatist women discuss their experiences? What is the harm in letting black women discuss their experiences? Does anyone else find it maddening that, in the same breath, seperatism is both “racist” and an expectation for black women from white “feminists?”

      Is it just me who gets tired of the black man boogey man bullshit white women spout? And not because they’re being racist against black men, but because at the heart of it, it really has nothing to do with black men at all. it has everything to do with an inherent hatred of black women and a a need to, at all costs, ignore, inviziblize and damage the efforts of black women, especially black lesbian seperatist women.

      I get so tired of reading the shit slinging around the web about you and kitty. I get so tired of watching group after group of rabid racist white women organize to take down one sistah or another simply because she spoke the TRUTH about their racism. Their “right” to not be called on their racism, pompous assholes, is greater, in their mind, than our right to not be subjected to their racism.

      and this is why i said what is the point? hetero women ain’t going away, racist white women ain’t going away. how do we cope? what happens when you just get TIRED of defending yourself? its a life long battle, and it’s overwhelming, taxing, unnecessary. White women’s feminism isn’t about women’s liberation, never has been. White women’s feminism has always been about equal footing with white men, that has always been the focus. It doesn’t matter what lies have been told throughout time, their “feminism” has always been opportunistic. Hetero women’s feminism will focus on their experiences as wives and mothers etc under patriarchy. Lesbian women’s feminism has always been under threat of hijacking by the aforementioned, not to mention by trannies, gay males etc. At the heart of it all are women who have been conditioned under patriarchy to submit to patriarchy, and i want to believe that in that there are women who really do care, but when i turn on the tv and see women bearing their breasts for beads…… turns my stomach, and i don’t give a fuck if it sounds like “slut-shaming” (that phrase infuriates me to no end btw.) The more i see women engaging in all manner of fuckin stupidity the more i’m like what is the point of it all?

      I’m glad you’ve been encouraged lately, though. We need your voice and perspective! There’s enough of the same old same out there.

    • Liberate-her permalink
      November 5, 2010 6:03 pm

      All the things you mention do get tedious and feel pointless when you’re not in a mental place where you need this kind of forum to parse all of these issues of privilege. But they often are needed.

      If I didn’t find like-minded women on the internet, I would have killed myself by now. That’s a big deal to me.

    • Gemma permalink
      November 7, 2010 3:26 pm

      I used to consider myself bisexual and mostly slept with men until finally i couldn’t ignore what the physical & mental penetration was doing to me. I cried when I found AROOO. Someone was finally saying it’s ok not to get fucked. I had never heard or seen that before. Your (meaning everyone who writes here) words have provided me with an amazing free education.

  3. Mary Sunshine permalink
    November 4, 2010 9:35 am

    Exactly what Margaret and Bev said!

    What early morning cheer. Thanks.

    😀

  4. la redactora permalink
    November 4, 2010 9:41 am

    “if not more so.”

    Oh, I would definitely say more so, as, on top of all of these:

    ” For most “feminists,” feminism provides a forum to discuss how male supremacy “hurts males too,” and to think of ways to save the poor males, whether sons, husbands, boyfriends, pimps, or johns, from themselves. It’s a forum for enumerating the ways in which male supremacy is not the fault of individual males, and for encouraging women to educate the misogyny out of the males in their lives. It’s a space for the self-congratulation of women who have found males who are willing to “listen” (while they’re fucking their “teachers,” of course).”

    they are probably engaging in further male-centric behaviors and institutions that they have access to in large part because of all those privileges.

  5. soulsis permalink
    November 4, 2010 9:46 am

    The spam filter ate my other post…

    I think that it’s important to note that likening a focus on intersectionality to being male-centric is just another excuse to not consider the effects of one’s race and racism on other women. I think it’s also important to note that some of the mose loved and reveared women in internet feminism are HETERO WHITE WOMEN who are married, have sons, etc. So, thank you SO much Margie for pointing out that the only feminism that isn’t male centered and male-identified is that of lesbian seperatist women.

    and if my comp didn’t eat my other post, and it was in fact the spam filter; the feeling of being overwhelmed by the constant blame-shifting within feminism is what i am trying to communicate. Like really, do white women *do* feminism better? Lesbian women? hetero married women with sons? Mothers of sons? what really is the common theme here? and what is the point of it?

    Who benefits from dismissing intersectionality as being a cover for “what about the men?” What purpose does it serve to completely undermine the lived experiences of non-white women and black women in particular, in this way? Do they realize it?

    and while we’re on it, why are we here? what’s the meaning of life? where do babies come from? (sarcasm)

  6. Level Best permalink
    November 4, 2010 1:47 pm

    “Just because a woman isn’t willing to separate from males doesn’t mean she has to lie about separatism. She doesn’t have to say that separatism isn’t possible. She doesn’t have to say that separatism is racist, or classist. She doesn’t have to say that only privileged women have the option of separating from males. All of these things are patently untrue, and perpetuating these lies invisibilizes the women from non-industrialized nations who have practiced separatism and the poor and black women in industrialized countries who have advocated separatism.”–Margaret

    Exactly, and thank you for this. Some heterosexual feminist women unnecessarily use “separatism is impossible” as a smokescreen for self-justification, as if what separatists might think disapprovingly about them is some incredibly dangerous threat. It’s not, women, please! Do as you wish or feel you have to, but while establishment of a separatist continent, country, or even town may be impossible, it is perfectly possible for individual women in many, many places on the globe to better their individual lives–which are their REAL, TRUE lives, not some theory–by practicing separatism to whatever extent that they can.

    • soulsis permalink
      November 4, 2010 4:14 pm

      “Some heterosexual feminist women unnecessarily use “separatism is impossible” as a smokescreen for self-justification, as if what separatists might think disapprovingly about them is some incredibly dangerous threat.”

      Right! Just say i’m hetero and i like it or somn. Don’t say seperatism is impossible, because you won’t make it possible in your life. What is the harm in seperatist women discussing discrimination, without the interjection of hetero women? The problem is oppressor classes feel they have the right to weigh in on issues they know nothing about. We see it all the time. Oppressed groups speaking amongst themselves is different from oppressor classes speaking among themselves about their privilege. A group of white women discussing white privilege and racism will have a very different convo than a group of black women discussing the same, and why cant those white women just listen to what black women have to say without needing to invalidate their lived experiences? Same with a group of hetero women and a group of lesbian seperatist women. The problem is people don’t want to be accountable for, or accept really, the ways in which their privilege impacts others. To be fair it is a really difficult conversation to know that while you might not be a raging racist or a raging lesbophobe, your access to privilege exists at the expense of the “other.”

      Am I alone in feeling helpless? is this some sort of phase? i cannot get my mind around why this has to be so damn difficult! It’s not like lesbian women are requiring hetero women to leave their nigels and grab the closest woman to them! actually hetero women need to stop running to lesbian women everytime nigel is as nigel does. its not like black women are requiring white women to dye their hair orange and tan till they’re skin looks like eel! it just seems so simple and easy to understand that i don’t get WHY ppl have a hard time with this.

  7. November 4, 2010 6:29 pm

    This is more than I can respond to since I have to leave in a moment, but I just want to say for now is that Margaret and all of you being public like this can literally save Lesbian and Separatist and even some Radical Feminist lives because we can see you here, know we are not alone, get support for knowing the lies aren’t true. I’ve been at this for 40 years now, and Separatist for 38 years, but you saw what was happening to me on that other blog and some saw it on the infamous thread I was blocked on (where they did not answer when I asked if they wanted a community segregated by class and race, with how elitist they were being.) I was still being bullied and traumatized, and it was affecting my health even. So this place feels like a wonderful refuge of decency, good politics, and a reminder, we do still exist and we still are an international movement and friendship group. I just wish we could party together!

  8. diana permalink
    November 4, 2010 7:46 pm

    Yes, this place is a refuge for a lot of us. And just so no one misses it and gets comfier than they’d feel safe with, I do have both het and white privilege. And I totally support Separatist spaces and Lesbian-only spaces and women-only spaces. And if you get burned out and I can help, without further burden, let me know. I soak up a whole lot of support here, revel in the brilliance, and in the challenges, as well. Least I can do is give some back, if there’s any way I can. –diana

  9. Kathy permalink
    November 5, 2010 12:17 am

    I echo the Yesses and thank you, Margaret, for pointing out that feminism minus separatism equals male support. I’m also so glad to have re-found your writing.

  10. soulsis permalink
    November 5, 2010 12:54 pm

    “I was still being bullied and traumatized, and it was affecting my health even. So this place feels like a wonderful refuge of decency, good politics, and a reminder, we do still exist and we still are an international movement and friendship group. I just wish we could party together!”

    This is exactly why I question if it’s worth it. The fact that this is the ONLY space I feel safe in is a huge problem for me. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sitting here crying abt not being at Ann’s table; I’m saying that in a movement that alleges to be pro-woman and pro-women’s rights/lib why the HELL is this the ONLY place for black women to feel safe? For lesbian women to feel safe? Why are these little disgusting groups of racist white women, and homophobic het women allowed to hunt down safe spaces and stalk and harass blog owners until they quit or feel so isolated, alone and afraid that they close up shop and run for their lives?

    I’m sure I’m not the only one who gets tired of having the defense and feeling like they’re on repeat constantly. Its one thing to be bothered and stalked by MRA’s and trannies, we expect that shit it’s what men do. But this? This constant denial and the attempts to make black female and lesbian seperatist (especially black lesbian seperatist) voices irrelevant makes me feel ill.

  11. soulsis permalink
    November 5, 2010 1:05 pm

    I hope this isn’t a derail, just thought of that. Ladies feel free to comment if it is. I think i’ve made up my mind. I’m deleting DCMYS, i don’t feel like I’m contributing anything and i feel like whatever contributions anyone can say I have made don’t matter in the greater scheme of things. I feel like the odd woman out and all of my work and effort yield no results except pain and regret. I feel like life is bigger than me and my lil voice on my lil blog, and i feel like I’m talking to a wall.

    Nothing happens over night, I know that… but it’s not looking like anything will happen in my lifetime either.

    Arooo has been like a breath of fresh air after leaving a stagnant room. Always has been, always will be.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      November 5, 2010 1:53 pm

      {{{ Soulsis }}} Just to say that I hear you, and that I hope to hear from you again.

      I feel a leap of joy whenever I see your name on the comment list here.

  12. November 5, 2010 2:24 pm

    ugh, soulsis, I hate that this is causing you such despair. I understand why it does. Margie makes great points in this post and, not that it’s my business to declare anything, but from where I sit what you’re talking about couldn’t be MORE on topic – no way it’s a derail. It sounds like you’re talking about feeling isolated and completely discouraged because, in large part, of the dynamics Margie names in this post.

    I can’t and wouldn’t try to tell anyone else what’s worth doing or why. I have never been targeted the way AROOO is, or the way you have been, and I’ve always thought it was hugely to do with racist misogyny. Because I was around back when the word “trannie” wasn’t even used on this blog (not out of omg hate speech! concerns but just…neither here nor there), before lesbian separatism was as frequently discussed (though this has always clearly been a space that is safe for lesbians, separatists, and lesbian separatists), back when Margie and/or Kitty said things that I myself have come to believe and have said on my own blog since. And I simply have not been targeted. And it has not mattered what they say or don’t-say, they have always been shit on, lied about, and attacked. As it sounds like has happened to you as well.

    All of which is to say I guess that I can’t imagine NOT feeling how you feel, at some point, with racist misogynist lesbophobic women acting these ways. And I hope it doesn’t feel to you like you owe it to anyone to keep participating in anything that exhausts and depresses you. But I did want to say for the record that a) I’m selfishly hoping you will at least make a copy of your blog and keep it on your computer if not on the net and b) whether you’re writing online or not, “speaking out” in other ways or not, the fact that you are a person on the planet who is a source of love for female people who are so widely and unjustly maligned, it has an effect.

    I agree with Margie that everyone who gives a damn about female people will at some point(s) feel burnt out. I don’t know if you’ll always feel how you feel right now, maybe you will, I hope not. I feel like it’s as important to have the space to talk about what you’re talking about as it is to have space to talk about the abusiveness that drives you to feel these ways.

    I guess I just wanted to say that I love you no matter what you’re writing or not-writing, and I believe you’re in a process more than at a dead end. But even if you *were* at a dead-end, who you are and what you’ve had to say would never be pointless. No matter what anyone else keeps on doing or how destructive it may be, it is extraordinary that you are who you are, period. Which I don’t mean as patronizing positive affirmation bullshit, I mean that it is just so unlikely, in these conditions, that any of us come to these conclusions and have the ability to love in these ways. I just wish it didn’t cost some so much more than others.

  13. November 5, 2010 8:43 pm

    Oh, Soulsis, I wish I could help you feel better. Even after all my years with political battles, I only recently became aware of blogs. I think you would feel that there are a lot more with you if more knew. I didn’t even know about your blog, for instance. I’m guessing that there are many Black Feminists and Radical Black Lesbians who would agree with and support you, but don’t know about you. Whenever I’ve gone to Lesbian political events in this area (like Tallon’s Butch group and the horrible Butch Voices conference in Oakland last year), the most radical were the Black Lesbians. There is an enormous community here, that, from what I’ve heard, is fairly Separatist in terms of being Black Lesbian only. They may not identify as “Separatist,” but they sure seem to have those politics. I’m in a group that is half Butches of Color — we’re organizing a much larger ongoing female-identified Butch group.

    Anyway, how do we get more Lesbians to know about AROOO?

    As you said too, it’s also that there are attacks from the reactionaries. Since this is all new to me, I haven’t known about that happening on blogs, or even about blogs at all. This morning, I again saw many postings in my email from that other blog. I was tempted to just send something brief, but really it’s a waste of time. I still cannot believe that issues of privilege and oppression, and something as serious as racism and classism among us are just a joke to them. But Soulsis, do know that they are in an incredible minority of arrogant idiots. Now, I don’t usually like to imply stupidity since that accusation is used against the oppressed, but, considering the arrogance of certain individual who feel fine about hurting us and our/their movement in order to hold on to their privilege and feeling superior, stupidity is just what comes to mind as the best descriptor. They are NOT stupid, really. They must be held accountable. But they CHOOSE stupidity in their arrogance.

    Sorry for the rant.

    I have rarely seen such silly things being said as they are saying, so I can’t help but believe that they are in an incredible minority. Most Lesbians I have know, if they are at all political, recognize differences in privilege and oppression between us. So really, we are in the majority in this. (It hasn’t always been good, like when class-privilege Separatists give workshops for money about classism, but at least the issue is acknowledged as existing!)

    Please do take good care of yourselves (after Fran killing herself recently, it’s even more clear to me that too many of us do not eat well enough, which has tremendous impact on our physical and mental health.) It’s not easy too, with all the propaganda in the media and by doctors pushing the worst kind of eating as the “healthiest.” Seriously, you can do well for a long time on your original Ch’i, but eventually it doesn’t work. It’s not easy to get adequate nutrition in our demented culture, and the impact physically, emotionally, and mentally is tremendous. Serious depression and chronic pain is rampant, and that doesn’t help with ongoing oppression and bad treatment. (I saw my severely mentally ill ex improve tremendously when she changed to the Paleo style of eating.)

    Sharing support makes all the difference too. When first on that other blog, I would feel sick seeing yet another posting. But now that I found you all, I don’t care. They must be so bored in each other’s offensive company.

    • November 7, 2010 4:08 am

      I’m glad you think we’re in the majority, Bev! It’s my experience, too, that the women I’ve talked to offline about lesbian feminism or lesbian separatism seem to want an awareness of where they are privileged and might be condescending to or furthering the oppression of other lesbians – because they want to help! They don’t want their efforts to help to be marred by an attitude of superiority, and the ones that aspire to superiority are rightfully shunned as arrogant.

      I also agree that sharing support is tremendously beneficial. There is nothing like commiserating with a woman who’s had similar bad experiences with a particular person or group. And I’ve noticed that these reactionary women do NOT want us doing that. They don’t want us talking about past behaviors that show the current nastiness to be part of a pattern rather than just isolated defensiveness. They don’t want us to share with one another the bigotry that’s gone unrecanted. They want the benefit of the doubt in new situations that they haven’t earned by apologizing for and learning from their past transgressions.

      Yes, sharing support is heartening *and* time-saving. And I hope that more lesbian feminists and separatists (and their supporters) can find us, too, before wasting time finding out that a lot of women online only want to manipulate the politics to justify their own choices.

  14. November 5, 2010 9:42 pm

    Okay, I lost it. I keep getting those letters from the other blog and I just had to answer. Don’t know if it will get approved. Probably not nice to include the quote I was responding to, but this is what I wrote.

    “Take on what men? Some of us do take on the men who’ve invaded our Lesbian communities, but that doesn’t stop the other problems of Lesbians using their privilege to dominate and bully. (And why the hysteria over the word “privilege? It’s been used for 40 years to describe how some Lesbian use their patriarchally-given power against the rest of us.)

    So we should just have segregated communities in our “Feminist” communities and keep quiet about it? It’s “chickenshit” to hold on to your privilege at the expense of other Lesbians, denying how you hurt and oppress other Lesbians. We should be quiet when events are unaffordable, when racist and classist jokes and comments are made, when reality is denied? We should just behave and not challenge your dominant rules. This is reactionary and not remotely radical. This keeps the male power structure going.

    And what does “attractiveness” mean? Do you mean the female-hating, porn-driven, racist,classist, fat-oppressive and otherwise looksist male media propaganda of who is considered “beautiful” that many of us consider artificial and quite ugly?

    • November 7, 2010 4:17 am

      Bev, I don’t even need to see the quoted comment to know what kind of nonsense you were responding to. They say it all the time, that we “attack” women instead of “going after men.” So, what, separatists are supposed to compromise their separatism in order to constantly put themselves in the company of males? We’re to take attention away from ourselves and our own communities in order to help non-separatist women live more comfortable hetero-social lives? Seems to me that it’s the happily hetero-social women who ought to be spending their time cajoling and negotiating with males. I’ve never understood why non-separatist women feel entitled to have separatists fighting their battles for them. Like you said, the only time separatists need have anything to do with males is when they’re encroaching on our individual or community space, and even then I don’t know that you could really call that the kind of “going after” that hetero-social women seem to expect (which I imagine would be constant over-attention to describing to males the crimes they’ve committed against female-kind, as if they don’t already know and couldn’t give a damn). Separatist dealings with males when they’ve encroached on our persons or our spaces amounts to self-defense and -preservation, not begging males for recognition of our outrage. And I don’t know why non-separatist women keep demanding that we waste our time doing that.

  15. November 7, 2010 5:40 am

    Margaret, you are absolutely right that they, the reactionary ones threatened by our daring to talk about equality, don’t want us seeing the pattern and supporting each other. Since they think “we can’t oppress each other as women,” I don’t know why they got hysterical over my using the word “hysterical” — as if I don’t know what it means. I knew it before some of them were born. I could have said that they had an unreasoning, illogical terror of discussing how to have equal, diverse communities, but really, at least what I said was understandable. And blunt, but not ridiculing. The way some ridicule to silence us really does remind me of how men used to (and still do) laugh at women who dare to talk about obvious sexism. I really don’t know what they are so afraid of. And they seemed shocked by examples I gave of oppressiveness I’ve seen/heard recently, and didn’t want to believe it. But they had ASKED for examples.

    And I agree with you too — what the fuck are we supposed to do about men? We have the least power, as Lesbians and as Separatists. As you said, let the women close to men deal with them. And let us build truly equal, loving, diverse, Lesbian-identifed Lesbian communities with as little oppression as possible. But really, they’re just using that to divert us.

    Anyway, we do exist around the world. I don’t know how many of us there are, but I love that we’re international and also all ages, classes, and, hopefully, races. I keep saying to the reactionary women that working for equality with Lesbians is the old Lesbian Feminist and Separatist politics, but it’s also modern because my new friends who are in their twenties and thirties and forties have the same excellent politics as the old days. I love it. I love the Lesbians!

  16. la redactora permalink
    November 7, 2010 5:46 am

    It’s my experience, too, that the women I’ve talked to offline about lesbian feminism or lesbian separatism seem to want an awareness of where they are privileged and might be condescending to or furthering the oppression of other lesbians – because they want to help! They don’t want their efforts to help to be marred by an attitude of superiority, and the ones that aspire to superiority are rightfully shunned as arrogant

    Wow, nothing to say except that’s excellent news.

  17. la redactora permalink
    November 7, 2010 5:48 am

    And apparently I need to remember to double check my HTML…

  18. la redactora permalink
    November 7, 2010 6:58 am

    Haha, thanks :-).

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