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“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men

December 1, 2010

“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men
“Transwomen” Are Merely Castrated Men

77 Comments
  1. FAB4Life permalink
    December 1, 2010 9:04 am

    Haaaaaaahahahahahahaha omg a classic.

  2. December 1, 2010 12:09 pm

    And that’s when they’ve even bothered to get themselves castrated. A good number of them are fully functioning males with wives and kids. So disgusting.

  3. Liberate-her permalink
    December 1, 2010 5:32 pm

    So many refuse to give up the dick because they’re not sure if they’ll have the functional capacity to get off on their autogynephilia fetish after that. Hmm…bringing fantasy to fruition, or losing the sexual gratification derived from the fantasy? Choices, choices! Poor men.

  4. December 2, 2010 12:42 am

    Lol! Don’t mince your words Kitty! What are you trying to say with this post? 🙂

  5. soulsis permalink
    December 2, 2010 5:55 pm

    I am so tired of it being called anti-trans or trans-phobia to accurately describe what you see when you look at the product of medical butchery. At the urging of dear sweet Margie, I saw some pics of what they’re [medical establishment and supporters] calling female genitals… I will tell you at first I was really pissed that she even brought it up lol, but I realize that it is important for born women real women to see what they [medical establishment and supporters] are doing to men… to see how disgustingly misogynist and sick men are that they [men] think this butchery=female. I am deeply offended… i thought it offended me before… hmph after what I just saw… smh

    a trans woman is a castrated man, if the trans-woman is, in fact, castrated at all. More often than not both ftm and mtf are really boys and girls in skirts and beards. Its like if you think you’re a woman/man then you are one doesn’t matter that ya still have a dick.

    I think it is absolutely horriffic what patriarchal medicine is doing to these people. These men are SICK and need therapy. These women are SICK and need therapy. They do NOT need butchery.

    And I dare say any self loving respecting adoring woman that can be fooled into thinking that those WOUNDS are natural is a misogynist and needs help. I can almost wrap my mind around the concept that males can/will be fooled into accepting that as real female flesh (shouldn’t they be familiar with the feel of testicle tissue though? they fuckin have em!!), i simply cannot accept that women WOMEN are tricked into buying this as being the equivalent of themselves, as being natural and just like our natural bodies. It hurts me… it really fuckin does my head in that this is a “woman” in their minds… so I resolve that any woman who is “tricked” by ball tissue is simply an idiot who clearly saw something the fuck was wrong with those wounds and went ahead anyway, or a woman who is messed up that she really thinks that a man’s balls is the same as her own labia… a man’s wound is the same as her vagina. It hurts me…

  6. soulsis permalink
    December 3, 2010 12:03 am

    Kitty. Yes! Absolutely this is what they think of our bodies. What a sick fucked up thing that is… just a hole for a dick and bam ur a “woman.” Ugh its fuckin disgusting.

  7. December 3, 2010 5:57 am

    Kitty, JC and I have been talking non-stop about this, and I have done nothing but try to help her understand why trans is at odds with Lesbianism and an sort of woman-positivity. Contrary to what Hexy thinks, it was me that convinced her to repost Bev Jo’s and dirt’s articles.

    I do not agree with LGBT. Trans is not a sexual orientation for one thing; personally I am only interested in the L. G means men, and B usually means male-identified. But there are no lesbian magazines to write for that do not include the whole spectrum of bullshit. This is the only one I have found that allows any critique of trans.

  8. December 3, 2010 5:59 am

    The lawsuit threat was in regard to Bev Jo publicly naming Beth Elliott. Anything about him, even comments referring to him, had to be deleted.

  9. December 3, 2010 2:27 pm

    When I was a girl I remember my mother telling me that males only had one true use for us and that was to produce children (using women for their sexual satisfaction was implied.) She said, “Once they figure out how to clone women we will fade off in their minds” which to me could be a good thing if it means we are left alone in general… I know that at the time she actually envisioned some machine that would actually clone a human being, she never ever pictured men with plastic tits and penetrative holes calling themselves women…

    I recently read something about how they’re trying to advance the butchery so that these men can use female body parts to reproduce… Why they need to reproduce when most of them are heterosexual men with female fetishes is beyond me other than another necessary step to produce this clone they call a woman.

    Pictures of what they think our genitals look like show just how committed these people are to cloning women. So what if it looks NOTHING like a real woman… it functions as a woman ought to right? Preying on women’s insecurities to attempt to convince us that butchered balls=our vulva is misogynist. I don’t know if any of you have read this, but I found a site yesterday that encourages clone women to accept that just like a real woman their genitals are different and will look different, ya know no two holes are the same! They even mention how many males are frightened by women’s genitals so they don’t really pay attention and won’t notice. All of this would be fine and dandy if the majority of these clone women were actually seeking relationships with men… no, far more of them want to call themselves lesbians and rape lesbian women by tricking them into believing that the clone is organic.

    “There I go what? Do you have any idea how terrible it is to be marginalized by women in the same way that men marginalized women before the feminist movement came around? Do you have any idea how hypocritical of you that is? Put on your ‘man shoes’ for a moment and look at what you and Bev Jo are doing to and saying about me, somebody who is finally establishing my female identity after decades of being positively miserable and near-suicidal as a man.”

    I actually laughed at this and had to get up and get the spit off my comp… the way that men marginalized women before the feminist movement? Coming from a man that was funny to me. Men don’t marginalize us now, they haven’t continued to marginalize us as women fought tooth and nail for every small “gain” that is available (primarily to white women but i digress…) These people really think that female oppression is either over or non existent. How many clone women actually even acknowledge female oppression at all? I have only seen them mention trans-“misogyny” and it’s only ever brought up to silence real women from any true analysis or discussion on all that is wrong with cloned women and their penetrative holes.

  10. Mary Sunshine permalink
    December 3, 2010 4:12 pm

    Soulsis,

    I feel the same way, and agree with every word you just wrote.

  11. Pseudoadrienne permalink
    December 3, 2010 5:30 pm

    Re: cloned women

    Well Soulsis, I would imagine that the androfascists in some misogynistic sci-fi dystopic future would be more than happy to create three strata of cloned women, or hell gynoid cyborgs. One strata would be for procreation and raising the spawns, one strata for recreational sex, and one to do all of the domestic/service shitwork. Too hyperbolic, too paranoid? Sometimes the male-dominated medical field terrifies me with their latest hypothetical “innovations” regarding the female form.

    • soulsis permalink
      December 4, 2010 12:15 pm

      @ PA

      It has taken me more hrs than it should to think of how I feel (in words) abt this comment. I feel terrified by the capacity the likelihood that this will/can happen… after seeing those photos of what passes for a woman these days I don’t have room to doubt or keep hope alive or any of that mess…

      If woman=man with a hole cut into him balls rearranged to create faux labia/clit. then what the hell is impossible? And I apologize to any woman who is offended @ reading it that way (offended in a disgusted sense not in a defensive tranny lovin sense) but to me it neds to be said this way to make a clearer distinction.

    • Pseudoadrienne permalink
      December 4, 2010 12:47 pm

      No problem with the response time soulsis. It’s cool. Anywho, I had my own experience last night regarding why it’s so important that lesbians have their own safe spaces, not just on the Internet but in real life as well. I worked up the nerve to go to my city’s only lesbian bar because I’m tired of my immediate family, cats, and coworkers being the only people in my life and I want to have a support system/social network of women like me. Unfortunately this place is no longer a lesbian bar and they now have gay men, transpeople, and hetero folks in this bar and there were more of them than lesbians. I spoke to an older lesbian at the bar and not surprisingly she told me that most of the lesbians clientele had left after they started catering to their *new* patrons and yet it’s costed the bar money to ditch their lesbians customers. She also told me that there’s a new lesbian bar in the city so I might have a look on my next night off. But yeah, it was a wasted evening (and money) for me. I felt very uncomfortable and I got the hell out of there before the “drag show” started.

  12. December 3, 2010 8:20 pm

    Valerie, when/if we didn’t want you to post here anymore, you will/would be the first to know.

    Do I like this public meal? No, I do not. Fucking men, particularly those sick bastard trannies will be jacking off to this shit for days. But here is a fact, a nasty fact. Online is absolutely the only place in this world that women can have a space (without physical violence) and not be invaded by men, —and that existence is fragile, quite fragile for numerous reasons, such as being at the mercy of whoever “owns” the network/milieu that we use and the possibility of infiltration. Nevertheless, it is the best we have right now, the best avenue to allow the public to read our big “FUCK YOU” to male supremacy while maintaining a fraction of control.

    I don’t think it is particularly productive to focus on our personal lives, because in those lives we all have our own row to hoe. I waffled when I read Soulsis and wondered if I should keep that portion of her comment up or answer for you. I decided you and she could settle it.

    But here is the thing, you chose to write for that Magazine, knowing they were pro-trannie. Yes, we all work with men and have to work with men, again though, that work does not have to encroach on our online community. You can go and post at that Magazine forever and a day and we can choose not to read it, because we don’t have to, we have THIS blog. Since you are not getting paid yet, you could have started your own magazine. You did not have to put yourself in a compromised position before there was even any money involved. To me it is a simple case of mathematics. We live in a male supremacy. If we were to say men start off with 100 and women with 0, even if you gave 50 to men and 50 to women, men will have 150 and women will only have 50. And that is if all factors from here on out is distributed equally,–which history has shown is not the case. A male’s 100 is actually 100 squared and a female’s 0 is just that, 0. Anything you give them, including the T on LGBT is giving them more than what females have.

    Also, I have to wonder how is it that you think you can accomplish something that we here at AROOO or any other staunch female only site can [should have been can’t] accomplish, and that is to be able to dance around men and still have your/our voice(s) heard? It is like women who think they can raise feminist sons unlike the countless mothers before them who were not able to. Do you not respect our experience(s), or do you just not care and have to see for yourself? If you have to see for yourself, I understand completely. I’ve had to see for myself in a lot of situations just to find out what I was being told already. But no one likes being told what to do and/or think, so again, I understand. I am living with the consequences of my adult daughter refusing to listen to me, in other words, refusing to respect my experiences. She is re-inventing the wheel over and over again and all I can do at this point is stand back and watch and attempt to shore up the damage or minimize the damage when I can. All the rest of the time I have to just keep my distance so I can be emotionally available for myself and the day-to-day horrors that I live with as a female in this patriarchy. So for that reason there will be times you may feel “abandoned,” because there is just so many times experience women can watch the same situation unfold. Daisy Deadair screams about ageism all the time and when she does I just want to holler, “preach it sister preach it”, but I know she just has to vent because ain’t no body who needs to be listening is listening to her.

    If you wonder why anyone could possibly think you are pro-trannie just revisit that in six months or so, because I hate to tell you, I really really hate to tell you this, but I think you will come to one of two fates. You will either burn out because you are not going to win with those trannies or you are going to become full-throttle pro-trannie. Trannies are MEN, males; most everyone will center male desires over those of females. You will have to play or opt out. Fact. We here at AROOO have maintained female-centered, black centered and we have paid the price. People don’t link to us even though we know they read us and get ideals and go back and write shit that we inspired but don’t give us a drop of credit. Why don’t they? Because they want to be accepted by whites and males so desperately that they will not risk an association with us. But, we have seen the reward and the reward is submitting to white male supremacy, and in our eyes, it is not a fucking reward. So it just comes down to your conviction and how much you have invested in that conviction. Bottom line.

    It is not as if we will rub your decision in your face, but please, don’t expect anyone to accept it. Because to expect acceptance is expecting us to submit to white male supremacy in a milieu that we don’t necessarily have to.

  13. December 3, 2010 9:11 pm

    Thanks for your response Kitty. I will reply shortly.

  14. December 3, 2010 11:29 pm

    soulsis,

    What I said about continuing to post here was really an addendum and not because of anything you said; sorry if that was unclear.

    As always I admire your courage, principles, and willingness to speak your mind. I very much look forward to the day we can interact again and I do take full responsibility for the fact that we won’t be justnow. Please do not think that what you have said did not make any impression on me. Thanks.

  15. December 4, 2010 12:26 am

    Also, I have to wonder how is it that you think you can accomplish something that we here at AROOO or any other staunch female only site can [should have been can’t] [(or haven’t been able to)] accomplish, and that is to be able to dance around men and still have your/our voice(s) heard?

    I made a typo in that comment that greatly changes the meaning. I meant to say can’t, not can. And I wanted to elaborate. Meaning, we have not been able to reach out and convince other women to stop putting trannie issues before female issues and we have kept trannies out. So my point is, how would anyone expect to do it while allowing trannies in. It would be impossible. A female’s voice would be drowned as long as trannies are around, —those trannies don’t have anything but time because no one wants to be around delusional people, especially delusional people whose delusions are being institutionally enabled. Here we have no trannie voices and still women are afraid to associate with us even though their constant reading has to mean something. Unless of course it is not women reading and just trannies monitoring our every move.

  16. December 4, 2010 12:37 am

    No need to apologize Sis, it was that I just didn’t want anything to become a feast for a trannie-male audience and sometimes I can be hyper-diligent when it comes to potential opportunities. But the fact is, those asshole monsters will make a feast out of the words, a, an, and the if there is a misogynistic payoff.

  17. December 4, 2010 12:44 am

    Margie I agree with every word you said and I thank you for saying it. This is exactly how I think and feel on the subject. I think it’s disgusting that a hetero woman is trying to make money off of lesbians and lesbianism (selling the entire group/culture out at a tranny rag of all places, at that). Those are MY feelings on it. It feels even more i dunno wrong i guess that it’s a hetero married mother of a male white woman doing it while trying to “represent lesbianism.” No hetero married woman can represent lesbianism. No hetero married woman can speak for lesbianism. And none should, especially not for profit, dream deferred or not.

    Kitty said earlier why not just create your own mag… and if payment wasn’t established from the beginning, i don’t understand why that would’ve been as hard. There is more I want to say but I details aren’t a good idea… i will try to make clear the connections though… I spent 5 years saving so that I could start my business. I have invested in it heavily and have paid for that dearly. I have also pulled from my forced retirement plan (i would never have elected for this plan btw lol) and quit my job. I say that to demonstrate that I understand it’s difficult, costly and a huge gamble to start something from the ground up and maintain it. But for me, my integrity, sanity are important, and the work I was doing with those horrible racist white women wasn’t helping me in anyway. Its a risk to start something on your own, but if you’re dedicated to it, you can do it. And you can do work that makes you happy and represents you without compromising who you are, unless you’re doing it for huge personal profit… and that’s a horse of another color. Basically you can make money and achieve your dreams/goals without doing it on the necks and backs of women you have more privilege than. I realized that my job with those racist white women, while rewarding financially to me, was rewarding me at the expense of my politics, values, integrity and on the necks and backs of my sisters. None of us can change the world, and I don’t believe anyone here has said they were… but the ways we can check our privilege and do i dunno i guess our part to NOT contribute to the oppression of other women are MANY and great. It just takes some actual effort and goddamn it it’s not that hard.

    There are far too many whites “representing” (read: profiting from) their slurry of “anti-racism” and far too many hetero women “representing” their slurry of “lesbianism.” It’s old, tired and time to end. But hell if men with wounds can claim to be women and lesbians, why the hell not!

  18. December 4, 2010 12:56 am

    For the record that fucking man Zoe Brain is the ugliest fucker on this earth, and he is so full of shit talking about getting a Ph.D. What the fuck ever. His ass is sitting on the computer 24/7, and I mean 24/7. Think of a site and he is there. Facebook, he is crying a river. WordPress, he is crying a river. Blogger, he is crying a river. Some bum-fuck no name small town in the middle of Middle Earth newspaper writes an article about how delusional trannies are and he is there. Let me play Sherlock Holmes for a second. He ain’t got a job. Living off his wife. Has all these desires but cannot pull away from the chair in front of the computer because that is the only place that allows him to entertain his delusions. I mean on facebook he is crying about missing his son’s birthday. And what song does he relate to, A SONG THAT A MAN SINGS ABOUT A FATHER AND A SON (a song I used at this very blog to talk shit about men). Zoe Brain is a male, a man. A dick. A prick. A twig and berry. Jerry Springer won’t call his ass because he is so fucking fugly.

    • December 4, 2010 1:32 am

      more-spit-on-the-screen-laughter!!!!

  19. December 4, 2010 1:19 am

    @ Margaret

    I appreciate you telling me what’s been bothering you. It’s true that I didn’t see it that way at all – I just felt free so everything else felt freer as well, but I do take your point. It’s very valid.

    I just want to say that I am going to step out of this thread as I feel you are making some great points and can probably discuss it easier without me. I am going to take the weekend off and as my move across the pond is coming up in two weeks now I may not be around much. I am not disassociating myself with anyone here, just to say what is happening.

  20. polly permalink
    December 4, 2010 8:46 am

    Most lesbians don’t make money writing about their own lives, and most of the few who do are the straighter ones, for lack of a better word.

    I think this is an important point. You will only make money out of writing about being a lesbian if you appeal to the mainstream. Because lesbians aren’t a big enough market on their own for realistic portrayals of lesbians (ones that appeal to lesbians) to make money.

    Hence you have the L word (‘lesbians’ that look just like straight women, are played by straight
    women for the most part and do pornified sex that’s meant to appeal to men). We recently had our own version of this in the UK called ‘lip service’ that most women I know thought was embarassingly bad. But you know what, it was meant to appeal to men.

    Lesbians have always grabbed whatever crumbs they can seize from the table of popular culture, and many are willing to accept representations of “lesbians” through the male gaze because they are the only ones that exist. But it’s time we started saying NO. Quite simply NO. I wouldn’t watch these TV series (even though it wouldn’t cost me anything apart from the electricity). I certainly wouldn’t go and watch a film like the ‘the kids are all right’ which depicts a lesbian who secretly wants to have sex with a male. A film where the (lesbian) director OPENLY ADMITS she was more bothered with appealing to the mainstream and to males than to other lesbians.

    I don’t need my existence to be validated through the media, I’m quite aware I exist. I don’t need to see depictions of ‘lesbians’ that are depictions of male fantasy that actually erase REAL lesbians from existence. I don’t need to read shit that plays to those who want to believe that women who desire women and refuse men can’t exist.

    This stuff is lesbian hating. Pure and simple.

    • December 4, 2010 9:34 am

      Ms. Polly I will take this comment to mean that you have been dying to be in our good graces again and that you are sorry for hanging out with racists and not giving us the due credit that we deserve and that you are sorry for being so obstinate because deep in your heart you know how wonderful, kind and intelligent we are. We accept your apology, —for now.

  21. soulsis permalink
    December 4, 2010 12:09 pm

    I would like to see polly’s response to kitty. I probably never will… but for once I would like to see a white woman b accountable for her own complicity with racism. Not more of the same lemme hang with these white racist “feminists” then run over and comment @ a bw blog.

    Here’s to hoping and not holding my breath.

  22. December 4, 2010 1:44 pm

    @ PA, a gaggle of friends and I went to a “lesbian nite” at a local bar last year for my friends birthday. I walked in and there were MASSES of het doods there and boys in dresses too. I asked the GM what the hell was going on and why there were so many men and men in dresses at lesbian night. He told me, of course it was a he, “we cant refuse service to anyone it would be discriminatory” to which i shot back “then why call it lesbian night and lure all these lesbian women here to be attacked and harassed by men and boys in dresses?” his mouth fell opened and my friends (white women) grabbed me and ushered me away. They said they were used to this and had begun to just prepare for it… how fucking horrible that lesbian women are expected to just take it when boys in dresses and het doods are forced into allegedly lesbian spaces?

    But its always the expectation where there are males involved isn’t it?

    • December 4, 2010 1:45 pm

      hit send too soon… but yeah i agree PA. It is important for lesbian women’s spaces. I feel like we need to create another way to distinguish born women from “head/clone” women since they have hijacked both woman and lesbian and misappropriated them.

  23. December 4, 2010 3:29 pm

    It really is horrific, the way males are literally destroying women’s bodies and replacing them with their own versions. It is murderous, violent, and terrifying. That is why I really cannot understand any woman who has been in touch with radical feminism or lesbian separatism being pro-trans. It is not just a case of saying, trannies need to get out of our spaces and leave us alone, although that is right. And it’s not just saying, they shouldn’t call themselves women, though that is right too. Even if a tranny existed who never bothered women (like there is any male alive who never bothers women) and never called himself a woman, or tried to force himself upon women, rape women, use women for financial support and validation – even if such a mythical tranny existed, he would still be a fucking menace to women, because trannyism itself is an act of hatred upon women’s bodies and our very existence.

    I guess I have more to say about the whole TMP situation, but to be honest I am just really gutted and cannot understand Val’s actions, and feel like anything I say now will be angry and maybe just too much. Val is someone I consider a friend, and I have been trying very hard to see this from her point of view, but the explanations given just don’t add up for me. In my opinion, being an editor of a pro-trans magazine, being responsible for giving males a voice within a women’s community, and censoring an article by a lesbian separatist, all in the name of furthering your writing career, are not things that you have ‘no choice’ over, and I can’t accept, ‘There is no choice. It’s just the way it is’ because that is starting to sound like corporate-speak/politician-speak to my ears. Why is there no choice? What about the choice to say NO?

    The fucking male trannies love it when women go over to their side, it makes them feel totally validated. They don’t care if some woman is only agreeing with them because she can make money out of it — they are still getting her support and co-operation, and they will use that support to bolster their position and campaign against real women. Also, they know that anyone who is willing to put aside her convictions for money is going to be weak and easy to manipulate – they have got you over a barrel before you’ve even started.

    • December 4, 2010 3:43 pm

      “In my opinion, being an editor of a pro-trans magazine, being responsible for giving males a voice within a women’s community, and censoring an article by a lesbian separatist, all in the name of furthering your writing career, are not things that you have ‘no choice’ over, and I can’t accept, ‘There is no choice. It’s just the way it is’ because that is starting to sound like corporate-speak/politician-speak to my ears. Why is there no choice? What about the choice to say NO?”

      TBL I agree with every damn word! It is my understanding that you are a writer or at least a part of that community/arena and you can be a great resource. Why not turn to a radfem with such access and incite instead of running a tranny rag? I agree that it all sounds like excuses and yet another privileged woman (white, het, married, mother of a son) abusing her privilege and this time for personal profit and gain. One cannot say that there is no choice when the choice to team with WOMEN REAL WOMEN who are women centered is always there. There is a choice and she made it. I just wish that would be said instead of the baseless “I don’t have a choice” claim.

      I hate the choice argument. I know a woman who got pregnant just a few weeks out of hs to a jailbird who she knew was involved in illegal activity that is dangerous to himself but more importantly to HER and her family/friends. Well when she wound up pregnant and everyone gave her shit for it she kept crying “but it wasn’t my choice.” Well… when you lay down with a man and fuck him you made the choice… you also made a choice when you didn’t make sure that you protected yourself from std’s and pregnancy. So in essence by participating in het sex you did make the decision to risk pregnancy/motherhood. Unless something is forced on you you ALWAYS have a choice. I just wish ppl would be real abt shit. I’d rather someone say I did this because at the time it seemed like a great idea and now it sucks that i couldn’t have my cake and eat it too as I thought. Instead of saying they have no choice. You can decide to do something different…

      I said up thread that I quit a job working for racist white women because working for them (though profitable to me financially) was profiting me on the necks and backs of my sisters. They were terribly oppressive to the 3 black women who worked for them (me included.) I could still be employed there and make money and claim to be doing something FOR the women I love and respect… sure I could easily tell myself and anyone listening that rot, but the truth is that I was making money doing something I hated under the guise of something i loved. When I realized that I got the fuck outta there.

      This choice thing is rubbing me the wrong way. I cant really put it to words but I’m trying.

    • December 4, 2010 4:27 pm

      Well, I think that is part of the issue for me personally, because I don’t understand why Val didn’t ask me for some advice or contacts in the first place. I’m not saying I’m all that in terms of writing, I am small-time, no doubt about it, and maybe she felt that I am too small-time to be of any use to her. I don’t know. Like I say, I am at a bit of a loss with all this, and I trusted Val massively – she has stayed at my house and she knows my offline identity and everything. It’s bewildering and kind of worrying.

      This choice thing is rubbing me the wrong way. I cant really put it to words but I’m trying.

      My take on it is, I think it’s just really hard to hear a woman say ‘there is no choice’ as if to suggest that somehow she is forced into doing something that hurts and oppresses women, when other women around her have made a choice to NOT do that very same thing, and at their own personal expense. Surely Margie could be writing for the New York Times or have a book deal or whatever. The only reason publishers aren’t knocking down her door is because she has made the choice to stay black-centred, woman-centred, lesbian-centred. If she made the choice to sell out those principles, she could easily rake in the big bucks. Or look at Bev Jo — she self-published her book, and she’s never made a penny out of it, but she wanted to connect with and write for lifelong lesbians like herself. Bev has never made any money, but of course she could have, if she’d sold out. So I can’t accept ‘there is no choice’. Maybe it is meant to trigger our sympathies, you know, because as women under patriarchy we can all relate to the experience of being forced into situations, but in this case I don’t see any lack of choice, and I’m not fooled.

      I have considered Val a friend for a while now, and this is so gutting. I wish I could understand it. I think that there is *still* a choice to get away from the trannies and do something woman-centred for real women instead, and I am just hoping that Val is going to see that choice and make it.

    • December 4, 2010 9:56 pm

      Just reading back and thinking this through. Soulsis, I agree with all you’ve said, and I am interested to hear if you figured out what was bothering you about the ‘choice’ issue.

  24. December 4, 2010 8:11 pm

    Just wanted to say that I have not been staying away from this thread out of disinterest or disagreement or reluctance to support anybody. Not that I thought you were waiting by the proverbial phone for me to show up, but that I love you all and this situation that is causing so many women pain matters to me because of that, and so I’ve been bummed that I haven’t had the time to say anything here in support yet. And now don’t really have the time either, except to quickly blurt something out. Margie and Kitty, if my haste causes this to come out bullshit-y, is it an imposition to ask you to just delete it? Argh sometimes I just wish we could all be in a room together (well a lot of times actually, ha).

    As someone who supposedly got close to almost making money from writing as a career thing, and as a person who still feels like, yeah that would be dreamy as a life if I could ever do that, I do have that reflexive empathy for you, Val, for wishing for that. And I wish I had been able to tell you ahead of time, in case it might have been helpful (not because I think I’m Grand Wizard Advisor to All), that it’s a waste of time to try to put any type of hopeful or positive spin on the compromises you have to make if you’re going to try to make money writing. At least, it’s a waste of time if what you’re hoping to do is lessen the anger or hurt that women you care about are feeling because of it. There’s no way for them not-to-know what is going on. And I know at least for me, and like soulsis says above too, I much prefer people saying outright “this is the bullshit I’m choosing, the end” then that they try to say “but if you knew where my heart was at, you’d know it’s not bullshit when, and why, *I’m* doing it.”

    Which, gah, I feel like what I’m saying is coming out like I’m trying to explain everyone’s feelings to each other. I just wanted to mention the part about me being able to relate on the writing front in case there is a part of you, Val, that is feeling like “well no one who is making these criticisms really understands, the world doesn’t work that way, where you can be separatist and still make a living as a writer, and I can’t help that I have this intense drive/dream to be a writer.” Because I *do* understand that. And I have made much more public and much more male-identified concessions than anything you’ve done or may possibly ever come close to doing.

    Which [sidebar – I type fast, that’s why this long-ass comment feels like “quickly blurting something out” to me, sorry if I got your hopes up that it would be actual brevity on my end] is also why I was reading this thread and feeling like, at first, I’m glad things are too hectic for me to have time to comment, because I feel like I don’t understand some things and I don’t want to add to the hurt here, specifically to Margie and soulsis’ hurt, by blurting out my ignorance. [And again, I’m sorry if I do that now and am not realizing it.]

    And now that I’ve read all of what’s been said here, it’s clear to me that my lack of understanding had to do the fact that I’m white and not a lesbian separatist.

    And not just saying that as a pat, “oh my privilege blah di blah” thing. I really was like, “I know I’m missing something because what I’m reading is making sense to me at the same time as I’m not able to concretely grasp it – why exactly is it a betrayal to be a voice saying something that would otherwise not be said, in a space where it would otherwise not be heard?” And I didn’t feel it as some defensive or “why can’t they see!” thing, I was genuinely confused at why the presence of what I thought at the time was dissent and female-centeredness is worse than the total absence of it somewhere. And extra confused about why I couldn’t grasp the problem with that, when people I trust and respect were articulating it.

    But everything that Margie and Kitty and soulsis and Mary and everyone has said about it here now, that has totally cleared it up to me. What looked to me like “presence instead of absence” is not even close to that. And again, honest to god I thought when I wrote my book that “at least I am someone in this particular area who is saying something that is critical of the misogyny in it,” but fuck, I REALLY really wanted to make money so I wouldn’t have to work a day job and could write all the time, because it’s what makes me happiest. It was only somewhat after the whole thing happened that I could look back and go, ugh, I totally sold my soul to the devil, and didn’t even get a dollar out of it so really I should call it giving, not selling, and I don’t know how or if I will ever try to publish traditionally again. There just doesn’t seem to be a way that would allow me to do so and not sell out female people, period. And I am never going to not-know that now.

    But part of me always knew that. And at that time in my life when I got that book published, I decided, even if it was subconsciously – life is short, I want what I want, I don’t see how it’s more harm than good, I want to try to get something good for myself and fuck the rest of it. Granted, this was a few years before I found any of the kind of female-centered politics that have opened my eyes like here at AROOO. But now that I have, I still can’t even say with certainty that what I believe about myself is that I would never make such a choice again. As Kitty also mentions in this thread, most of us get by in at least some ways by our collusions with white male supremacy, and I certainly still do even though I’m not writing for pay as my job. I work for white men, and no matter what I personally do in my job and no matter what “type” of white men it is that I’m working for, my office job is not supportive of black lesbian separatism, and my whole LIFE is directly in opposition to it.

    I don’t want to hurt anyone I love, or have them think I don’t love them because of it, by being all “well look I’m not going to quit my job or stop conforming to white femininity standards and sometimes I even still fuck men no matter what my feelings are about males,” among other things. But, I mean, there’s really no escaping that that’s exactly what I’m doing. And if I love people who my life and actions are set in opposition to, which I do, then I am hurting them. Well actually I’m hurting them whether I love them or not, obviously. I’m just saying that the fact that mostly it isn’t something I bring up and so most of the time I get to skate by without criticisms about it, that’s not right, but it’s what happens.

    And if/when it has come up and anyone’s been disgusted with me for it…I mean I don’t even know what to say other than, “of course they are.” I don’t feel like oh my god I’m evil and they hate me and how tragic it all is. I’m sad to say I actually feel something that I don’t know how to describe without it sounding cold. Which is, I make choices to benefit from the positions I’m able to benefit from under white male hetero-supremacy. Those are the facts. Because it feels better for me than not doing so. Except in the areas/cases where it is more uncomfortable for me personally to go along with instead of resist. In which cases I like to consider it to be that I’m “holding my ground” or “standing up for black lesbian separatism.” But since the only thing any of that has ever cost me is personal relationships with individual men and women, it’s not a sacrifice, it’s a weeding-out implement.

    I feel like this is now so bloated and maybe pointless of a comment. It’s not that I think saying “hey I’m a colluder!” solves anything. I just wanted to be able to say that this didn’t feel to me anymore, this conflict, like I thought it was maybe looking to whichever outsiders are viewing it with glee, or might have felt to Val herself. It doesn’t feel to me like a choice between personal happiness and political solidarity with women one ostensibly cares about. It feels like a choice between blatant back-turning on women one ostensibly cares about while already being a woman who is not actually in political solidarity with them to begin with, versus making the choice to, in this specific instance, simply remain in the state of not-being in political solidarity with them by passing up this chance to personally benefit from that lack of solidarity.

    I support what’s being said in this space and why, is I guess what I could have just said and left it at that. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to say all of it, and to Margie and Kitty for having a space where it’s possible for such things to be said and thought of.

  25. December 5, 2010 1:16 pm

    @ Joan, perhaps we should all just accept at face value the excuses Val is making for her actions… but many of us just can’t. I cannot accept that a married hetero woman can come into lesbianism while still married to a man and living with that man and her first thought is how can I make money. That is exactly what has happened here, how she can make money writing about something she is not a part of. No woman who is married to a man, fucks a man and has no intentions on leaving that man is a lesbian. To say so is to completely ignore everything I know to be true about lesbians and lesbianism. To say so would be, to me, like slapping lesbian women in the face. Because while lesbian women remain some of the most underpaid overlooked women (especially black lesbian women) this hetero woman thinks she has the right to profit from an existence that lesbians themselves never profit from. Furthermore, her profit driven focus will reward her in tranny dollars. Where else is the money coming from?

    That’s hetero thinking… its co-opting an experience you do not share and it is aiding an industry/society that already privileges hetero women over lesbians how much more so a hetero claiming to be a lesbian while married to a man and living with him? It just contributes to the delusions about lesbianism, the same delusions that lead butchered men into thinking that they are women and thus lesbians.

    • December 6, 2010 12:02 am

      thanks for your reply, Soulsis. I did not sleep at all last night so this may come out all fucked up I’m sorry to say.

      I don’t feel like I can know whether making money was Val’s first thought about lesbianism once she came out, and there are absolutely women on this thread (you included) who have a right to critique the choice to marry and come out and not leave one’s husband, but I am not one of them – I can’t claim anything but straightness myself, regardless of my not being partnered with a man for many years and loving women both sexually and in every other way. I just wanted to make clear my situation rather than sound like my aim was to dissociate myself from lesbianism, rather than wanting not-to appropriate it (the latter being my actual aim). I just feel uncomfortable saying anything at all about that aspect of Val’s situation, but because it is being discussed, I’m uncomfortable saying nothing, too. What I will say right now is that for transparency’s sake, I am going to email Val rather than say something I want to say to her, here. Not because I want it to be a secret (she is welcome to publish it anywhere if she likes) but because I don’t want to take up space here with what I want to say to her. It feels like it would be really inappropriate.

      I take your point too, in another comment, about whether any non-white woman would have been given the benefit of any doubt in Val’s shoes. It would seem unlikely to me.

  26. December 5, 2010 1:22 pm

    hey TBL.

    I have been thinking about this all day and what I have come up with is the following list. These are the things I thought of/what bothered me and what is still weighing heavily in my mind.

    – Choice is almost always invoked to defend one’s poor decisions that have harmed others at your benefit.
    – Choice is almost always an excuse for one’s inaction or negative action on a particular matter. Like the woman I mentioned up thread who got pregnant by a criminally violent man and said she had no choice. On some level there is always going to be some oppressive male supremacist force present and as long as we are real women we will have to “pay.” but male supremacism doesn’t = no choice, especially when there are women who make the unpopular (read: inferior) choices all along.
    – Making the choice to sell women out who have trusted you and engaged you so that you can skip off to make a buck just never seems right. Probably more so, for me, as a radfem seeing another feminist woman do this.
    – choices white/het/married/mother’s make have a greater impact than they’re willing to accept/acknowledge. I think we all know enough about intersection 101 (or at LEAST i hope we do) to get why that is. A white married hetero woman who is the mother of a son will DEFINITELY be privileged over an ex-het black lesbian separatist and even more so over a never het lesbian.
    – This choice in particluar seems even more upsetting to me because there is a hetero married woman claiming lesbianism (i don’t mean that as a pejorative i simply cannot find a better word) and claiming to represent lesbianism and claiming to represent lesbianism to tranny’s… exactly what ground do you have to stand on as a MARRIED HETERO woman while claiming to be lesbian? Not that any born woman could ever have any “ground” in tranny camp unless she’s suckin tranny dick.
    – That this has impacted so many women and women who are “loved” are either being ignored or marginalized for a shot at tranny $.
    – That all of this is happening and is giving support to trannys over women…. I think this is the thing that makes me most angry and just upset.
    – That someone can think that while married and living with a man that they are lesbian and that as such they can make money from writing about lesbianism (under the guise of having a “lesbian” voice where there is none) and think this choice=no choice.

    I really haven’t been able to put express these thoughts more cogently; all I can do is list them and think about it. It’s easier to talk verbally about this than it is to write, can’t explain why that is.

    • December 5, 2010 7:32 pm

      Thanks soulsis — there is a lot there! I agree with everything you said. And isn’t there something about saying ‘no choice’ that is also saying ‘no blame, no responsibility’? Like saying, ‘I know what you’re all saying is right, but I have no choice but to do this other thing ( and actually you should feel sorry for me, because of this no-choice situation I’m in).’ I was reading over the comments, and Val says she agrees with and understands everyone’s points, but obviously nothing she agrees with or understands seems to change her mind about what she’s doing – because she has ‘no choice’. So she is not really agreeing, just nodding her head and trying to avoid the responsibility for what she’s choosing. Like you said, it would be better just to be honest and say, yeah I made this choice because I wanted to and that’s it.

    • December 6, 2010 9:47 am

      Yes, I agree with everything soulsis and TBL have said here.

      I’m especially confused about the feeling sorry people are supposed to be doing here, when there are in fact other choices to be made. I just wanted to say that.

  27. December 5, 2010 1:26 pm

    and I cant help but wonder who people would’ve reacted if Val were a black woman. Would the benefit of the doubt still be applied? Would people have kept quiet or been as reluctant to speak about how they feel on it? I always ask these questions when non-black women are involved.

  28. FAB4Life permalink
    December 5, 2010 1:38 pm

    What the fuck was that with the “Kids Are Alright” movie coming out this year? It was billed as a LESBIAN movie but was about lesbians mad for sperm donors. The promotional posters had women circling the all important sperm donor, who was of course centralized. Then the “lesbians” suddenly decided to have sex with the sperm donor (which is so common among lesbians doncha know). Because lesbians don’t really exist, right? We’re all ready to get hot for the right dude. Actual lesbianism does not exist.
    I was thinking about this film earlier when reading a comment from a tranny who said he wanted to “fool” a lesbian because “where did we get off thinking we’re better” having never touched dick. What uppity bitches lesbians are, being gay and avoiding dick. Fucking snobs!
    And where was GLAAD complaining about that sick anti-lesbian film? Or the NYT or Salon or any of the other so-called aware media outlets? Not a single public voice against that film. Not that I witnessed. Because the filmmaker I guess called herself a “lesbian”? Or a bi?
    That film was pure lesbiphobia, not made by a lesbian that’s for sure. She used lesbians to sell a film about bisexuals (or something). And NO lgbt organization spoke up about it. It was like one of those old time films where a building falls on the dyke at the end.

    • December 5, 2010 2:08 pm

      Fab, any woman calling herself a lesbian (and anything calling itself a woman these days) is indeed a lesbian according to heteronormativity and that lgbtq soup group. The only type of “lesbian” that is real to these ppl are those who fuck males. Bi-sexual women are not lesbians… they are women who like to fuck men and women and I don’t think they should call themselves lesbians. Lesbian=woman not a het dood who likes to fuck women (whether he believes he is a woman in his head or not.)

      But then think about all the lesbian women who are having children and how much attention those lesbians are getting. The more “lesbianism” mirrors heterosexuality the more acceptable “lesbianism” is. And while everyone is hip-hap-happy about how much “progress” the lgbtq soup group is making and its so commendable and BRAVE and what not, to correctly analyze these actions as anti-lesbian is WRONG and you’re a woman hater and anti-lesbian and backward thinking. What right do you have as a REAL lesbian to ever tell these man fuckers/marriers that they’re NOT one of you?

      This “my choices=feminist” bullshit is getting on my nerves. So are the hetero women who think that liking to have sex with women=being a lesbian. They take their cues from males and it’s just annoying and gross… I almost hauled off and slapped the taste out of the mouth this one haitian guy I know. I was talking about something related to lesbianism with my sister and he said with a smirk “I’m a lesbian. I love to have sex with women too.” I actually had to pull my hand back but I really feel that is the most appropriate response to men that insist on degrading lesbianism and equating lesbianism with what they (men) represent and do to/with women. It is not the same and I take high offense at the insistance that it is all the same. The L needs to be removed from that alphabet soup group, it never ever belonged.

  29. December 5, 2010 2:14 pm

    Another point about this, my best friend in the world has an std she cannot get rid of because her gf’s ex is a “lesbian” who fucks men. None of them knew this woman was a male fucking “lesbian” and if they knew they wouldn’t have had anything to do with her. So now that’s two women’s lives you have ruined because of your need to fuck men and call yourself a goddamn lesbian…

    and bi women wonder why lesbian women don’t accept them and are reluctant to enter relationships with them. Who can blame them? What lesbian woman wants a hetero disease because some hetero sorry ass woman hid her het status (this woman was a married het too btw… so who knows if she got it from her nigel or from some other man she was fucking, especially since after both lesbians were infected it came out that the het woman engaged in 3/4somes with men and sometimes other bi women) and put them at risk?

    Its just selfish… and to me it’s just another layer of hetero privilege.

    • FAB4Life permalink
      December 5, 2010 2:30 pm

      It goes beyond privilege into aggressive colonization. Agree with everything you said. I have friends that are those assimilating married child-bearing lesbians. And they aren’t the least bit interested in the sperm donor beyond his pre-screening for stds and genetic anomalies. They certainly aren’t interested in getting to know his magical maleness, much less fucking him. Through no fault of his own. The reason is- they are Lesbian. Gay. Homosexual. There are actual homosexuals folks! Female ones too!

  30. polly permalink
    December 5, 2010 5:53 pm

    It’s an honest comment Kitty. And it’s left here because I’m concerned about Val, however if you would prefer that I didn’t leave comments here, please say so.

    I also left a few comments on the racist site that didn’t get published. Big surprise there.

    • December 5, 2010 6:08 pm

      Ms. Polly don’t change the subject, and don’t try to play poor pitiful me (…”if you would prefer that I didn’t leave comments here…”) with, well, me. I stated the condition of allowing your comment (and all future comments) and that is, your comments are accepted on the grounds that I see your desire to comment here as an apology for being an ass to us in general. I know we will never get an actual apology ever so I am making the apology. The ball is in your hands. When/if you comment again (and I am counting this very comment of yours that I am responding to), it is with the understanding that you have apologized and we have accepted and you are now free to comment here.

      Nevertheless, we are free as always to call out your racism when you try to play some equal-equal devil’s advocate crap with racists who are clearly trying to be nasty to us. So, there you go. The topic will not be approached again.

      So, welcome home or goodbye.

    • December 5, 2010 6:14 pm

      Polly if you are concerned about Val, val has a blog and an email. Seems to me that you are running to the aid of a white woman and trying to do ur lil sisterhood kumbaya dance over here unchecked. I saw that you DID comment at Val’s blog so I know that you’re already aware of what I just said.

      Furthermore where is this concern coming from? Are you concerned about any of the women here who feel betrayed by her recent actions? Did you come here out of concern for TBL, Val’s friend, who has expressed not just disappointment but hurt and confusion? Or did you see yet another white woman being held accountable and feel the need to rear your lil head and do your lil dance?

  31. December 5, 2010 6:11 pm

    Polly, please take that racist apologism to someone who gives a damn. Our liking you, or not, is sort of irrelevant when the topic is addressing and holding you accountable for consorting with racists.

  32. December 5, 2010 6:16 pm

    You got it Kitty! I actually like that better than expecting a racist white woman to have the integrity and sense it takes to realize her errors and feel some need to account for them.

    So yes polly, your continued comments here demonstrate that you recognize that you have been consorting with racists and that you are sorry, and we accept your apology with opened arms.

    And they say that the women at AROOO are cold and mean and unpolite. tsk 🙂

    • December 5, 2010 6:22 pm

      LOL!

      Being concern about Val is a derail. Polly’s first comment showed an interest in lesbians. Her stubbornness (pride) has made her pretend as if it is now about Val. That’s why I don’t want to be derailed with the white woman support thing coming from Polly or not. Although it is more than likely true, the point is, in her first comment she was focused on lesbians and selling out (the comment is up there) and I want her to be able to express those views. So for Polly’s own good, I have to sort it all out. (I am such a benevolent person!) LOL!

      And one of these days, Ms. Polly will be able to laugh at herself and her faults and move on. It does not kill a person, it is quite therapeutic actually.

  33. December 6, 2010 12:20 am

    Joan, (and anyone reading who may give a damn) I want to strike the first thought comment(s), its unfair. I don’t know anyones thoughts and claim or action is actually a better word to represent what I am trying to communicate.

  34. December 6, 2010 3:31 am

    soulsis, I’m sorry I misunderstood that and responded that way, I shouldn’t have said it.

    • December 6, 2010 8:38 am

      It was my misunderstanding not yours.

    • December 6, 2010 12:44 pm

      No, I think it was Joan’s mischaracterization, sis. I most certainly didn’t read what you wrote to mean that you actually knew exactly what Val must have been thinking when she chose to try to make money off of being a lesbian. That wasn’t the point. It obviously wasn’t the point, and it’s only an over-generous desire to help excuse that behavior that would lead anyone to nitpick over the word choice there. Joan has been known to display an overabundance of generosity that way, and it’s clear to me that that is what has happened in this case.

      I don’t mean that as a criticism, Joan, but it’s something I’ve seen on more than one occasion, and I don’t want sis to take responsibility for it, especially with the way Val has completely mischaracterized her words without giving her any benefit of the doubt. We have all had private communications with Valerie, and I think that warrants us some consideration. So, sis, no, you were perfectly clear, and you shouldn’t apologize or take responsibility for an interpretation of your words at which a person would really have to go out of her way to arrive.

    • December 6, 2010 1:08 pm

      I am getting used to wp again, so I forgot that you can still reply to what someone says by stacking it under what they’re replying. That said my comments are all over the place because I had no idea how the hell to stack.

      Margie thank you, I was over zelous about being fair to Val, even though she has not extended that same courtesy to me, typical. You are right what I said was clear enough and my words were being picked apart. All of this has really exhausted me and I am probably going to step away from the comp and blogging for a few days. I have finals coming up, and while this is important to me, finishing school and passing exams (in a space where I am a double minority as a black female and constantly having to fight for my rightful grades, white female professors “accidentally” shaving off points on things that are correct but giving an abundance of points to white males whose work is inferior to my own) is more important than trying to get white het privileged women to see their fuckery.

  35. December 6, 2010 8:43 am

    But I do take issue with the way my words have been twisted by val and in her space, a white/het privileged space, a space that was formerly “pro-black women” and “lesbian safe/friendly.” I wish ppl would say that their spaces are going to be pro-black/lesbian safe and friendly until you question their privilege and accurately describe their circumstances, then it’s time to disempower you and attack you and pick apart what you have said and create a me-me-me argument to detract from the fact that constantly throwing your het-privileged status around is anti-lesbian and is further privileging you over ex-het (not currently living as het as Val IS) and never het lesbians.

    The opportunity to discuss this issue HERE was always present, but Val just had to take that white woman high road and bow out so that we could “discuss it without her” since, as she said, she felt we could do so better with her absence… I absolultely enjoy (sarcasm) this entire shit show and the many ways in which Val is conflating the important issues to shirk responsibility and reframe it as a personal gripe (why would I have a personal gripe? or any other woman?) and an “attack” on her.

    More on this later though…

  36. December 6, 2010 10:56 am

    I wasn’t going to say anything else, but I did want to add one thing. Marriage is a heterosexual institution based upon male sexual, reproductive, and domestic usage of female bodies. If any given married woman is presumed to be having sex with her husband, it’s a function of marriage’s institutional purpose, not of any individual woman’s actual activities in her relationship. I know LOTS of married women who aren’t having sex with their husbands. My mother didn’t have sex with her husband for years before he finally left her for my sister’s best friend’s mother. And yet everyone assumed they were having sex, and she understood that there wasn’t really anything she could do about that since they were in fact married and they were in fact living together. While my mother doesn’t consider herself a lesbian, she certainly would have liked to have been able to have it publicly known that she wasn’t having sex with her husband. She constantly talked about the way most of her married friends didn’t have sex with their husbands anymore and how it would be nice to have that acknowledged as a feature of marriage, rather than as some kind of anomaly that should be corrected as soon as possible. But at the end of the day, that’s just part of what marriage means – being presumed to be sexually active with your husband. It’s not about thinking some particular woman is sexually active with her particular husband. It’s about the fact that all wives are presumed to be sexually available to all husbands.

  37. December 6, 2010 11:37 am

    Margie, thank you for that. It amplifies my comment perfectly and is an important point to note.

    As a side note:

    because white/het women so seldom ever see the need to apologize for the ways their privilege abuse harms/puts in danger the women around them, I want to say to all our readers, to all my sisters that I am deeply sorry that this has happened to us and I am deeply regretful of ever trusting Valerie to be anything other than an obtuse privileged white woman. The signs were always there, but I trusted her and gave her the BOD in spite of my better judgment and general policy of requiring white women to EARN that bene, since plenty enough folks automatically give whites credit where none is due. This is extremely painful and it is absolutely arrogant for Valerie to continue acting obtuse, ignoring and minimalizing the VALID feelings of the women she has hurt and betrayed and like she is not wrong, or shouldn’t be implicated as wrong for all her actions/statements online and off all because it’s soo unfair that she is being called what she is, a white and het-privileged woman. She has an excuse for EVERYTHING and we are all supposed to just buy this shit without question because it hurts her feelings… and white women’s feelings (intentional or not) are always more important than the feelings of those she hurt and betrayed with her actions/inaction which ever it may be.

    Women are always expected to take one for the team, aren’t we? Even from one of “our own” and especially when “our own” is white and het-privileged.

  38. Mary Sunshine permalink
    December 6, 2010 12:02 pm

    My love to all the fierce, eloquent females here who have so loudly, proudly, and clearly expressed your defense of lesbian existence and lesbian boundaries.

    You fill me with courage and hope.

    • December 6, 2010 1:12 pm

      Hugs Mary! it hasn’t been easy, I can tell you that. Actually this entire situation has been one HUGE disappointment. But at least this time ppl were vocal and it wasn’t another white women rallying to defend one of their own shit show… or at least not yet and not as bad as it could be because there are definitely white women (polly for example) who defended her for just that reason.

  39. December 6, 2010 2:25 pm

    Writing and/or editing for any venue that allows trannies a voice, a moderated voice or not, is a venue that supports trannies. The only possible way of dealing with males in a patriarchy is not to let males have a voice. Patriarchy is not equal land therefore it cannot be equalized.

  40. December 6, 2010 2:35 pm

    When emotions are high I like to navigate between what has actually been said/implied and what someone believes and/or projects(ed) someone has said. It does very little while all the emotions are flying but experience here at this very blog has shown me that people who quickly come to believe (or become willing to announce it publically) that we are rotten to the core (and I have to wonder if they wanted to reach that conclusion all along) (at this time, I am not accusing any particular person of doing this) can no longer support that position after they have calmed down and come back in search of evidence of our rottenness.

  41. December 6, 2010 3:02 pm

    I don’t take it as a criticism Margaret, it feels simply like accurate clarity of something I wasn’t seeing or able yet to be honest with myself about, if that makes sense. Soulsis, it was not your misunderstanding of me, it was my extreme discomfort with people I love fighting with each other and so responding to that word choice for solely that reason, and I should not have. I’m sorry I said it (I mean that as an apology, not “oh geez I wish I’d kept my mouth shut,” – that wish is a separate subject) and this sounds ass-kissing but I am glad Margaret replied on it instead of you being left with that feeling while I was off to bed at 8:15. Last beating-of-a-dead-horse with this on my end, but I really am sorry I added to your hurt and stress on this thread and in this situation. I hate that you have been hurt in the first place, and wish I had just stated my support in my first comment and stopped there.

  42. December 6, 2010 3:04 pm

    Just for the record, when I saw trannies commenting at that magazine, I knew it was a sinking ship for any purpose I may have read it for. I will be glad when the day comes that most women have already jettisoned all of their baggage and can see without having to fight with each other when something is not worth fighting over. That magazine is not worth fighting over. The owner wants to allow men in. It’s a done deal. If a woman wants to stand up for that magazine then she is not ready to stand against men, not even in a world (internet) where standing against men is easier than opening a new email account.

    • Mary Sunshine permalink
      December 6, 2010 4:57 pm

      Oh, Kitty!!! Delicious.

      🙂

    • December 6, 2010 6:00 pm

      I feel you Kitty and you know what I’m so over it. While I can get why ppl would want to support the concept of having a ‘lesbian’ voice where there is none, I have to say that there is no other sensible reason, to me, for anyone to defend a woman who says she’s lesbian making money at a tranny blog is collusion with whiteness against agreeing with Margie. I simply cannot stress enough how very vile, hateful and bitter racists the white women who hate you, Margie and AROOO are.

  43. December 6, 2010 5:54 pm

    Although painful while happening, these types of conversations make women stronger. When women are stronger they are more prepared to deflect men.

    • December 6, 2010 6:15 pm

      This is true.

      “The owner wants to allow men in. It’s a done deal. If a woman wants to stand up for that magazine then she is not ready to stand against men, not even in a world (internet) where standing against men is easier than opening a new email account.”

      I know right? And while I wish we all just saw this from the beginning I feel like this and the above comment REALLY go together. Sometimes this shit has to happen, it’s unfortunate I know but it does. Some people really do have to continue to walk into a brick wall, completely missing that you’re standing there showing them the door through the wall that obstructs their movement. And some people just lack integrity, its not a put down it’s juts the truth, and the ability to not only believe or agree with something but to ACT on it and to live it. I think that is really what the issue was all along. And that is the core issue behind this post, just because you can lie to yourself and say that a strawberry is a grape, doesn’t mean it’s a grape. You can cut that strawberry down, peel it, alter it’s appearance so it barely passes as a grape, in that it is similar shape and size, but it is always gonna be a strawberry.

      Please excuse the fruit salad example.

      It’s sad that it happened but not the first time and won’t be the last. Each incident is upsetting and annoying, no doubt, but it’s bound to happen. I just think that it’s really telling of one’s politics and values, how you view yourself in both the TMP situation and with trannies as well. Entitlement is something else, and unfortunately it is the tie that binds privileged folk over non-privileged folk.

  44. December 6, 2010 7:11 pm

    I’m over it too! 🙂 But I just want to say, thank you to the women here who got what I was saying for my part in it, and *didn’t* think I was being over the top or unfair, or out of order, or whatever. That is appreciated.

  45. December 6, 2010 8:33 pm

    Look at how trannies love to lie. This man was just as greedy as the other greedy ass consumerists out there the day after Thanksgiving and got roughed up just like all the other greedy ass consumerists out there fighting to get through the door of places to buy cheap shit. Yet, this man is acting like he was assaulted specifically because he cross dresses. What the fuck ever, man. Cross dressing males love to sensationalize. And then, typical of male entitlement, the cross dressing male thought the store employees and the police should stop every thing they are doing and tend to his every whim. Sounds like a man trying to get a department store to pay for his castration. And it sounds like his mother enables the fuck out of him.

    • December 6, 2010 9:18 pm

      These cross dressing men don’t want to be treated like women, they want preferential treatment, —to be treated better than women. Can you imagine if a woman had complained to the police station and or the store and said she was trampled upon because she is a woman. They would respond with “prove it,” and laugh. Women are mistreated every minute of the day. Yet everyone runs to the aid of a man in a dress.

    • FAB4Life permalink
      December 6, 2010 9:39 pm

      “The Officer recorded that the unknown witness said “Quick was outside in line and became upset with the black male subject and Quick then threw the first punch, the black male then defended himself .”‘

    • December 6, 2010 9:50 pm

      I removed that boring video. Trannies get no play here.

    • December 7, 2010 12:37 am

      I wrote about the way trannies want to be treated better than women – or, at least the want to be treated the way the most prized women are, not like the rest of us – in my Privilege post.

    • December 15, 2010 8:26 am

      You’re right Margaret- the Kohl’s video showed that the tranny and his mother tried to shove their way past the people who had been waiting in line for hours and then the tranny attacked a guy in front of him and almost bit his thumb off. I don’t think he’ll be suing Kohl’s for any money for his surgical fetish needs after all…

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